***North Korea vs USA*** Offical Match Thread

[SeagullSongs]

What's the guest ale and special pie for this fixture.

How many tickets left...

No pies, only hot dogs available

Nearly a sell-out too.

 

[GreersElbow]

For the record I presumed your dislike of left wing politics because of your closing statement about capitalism!

Like I say, if you tell me to cite a source I'll do my best to do so for you as above.

You're absolutely right about NK's show of strength, it's a lot like a small dog baring its teeth - but I do believe unlike most I am being objective about this. It's very difficult to completely understand the truth in a propaganda war of a secretive state. So I think it's best to look at the undisputed truths, such as NK's statistical military capability which is extremely capable - or indeed the Juche ideology of which they subscribe.

In regards to cutting off their economic resources - the US has already tried that - over and over and over for 60 years. They did it recently by imposing new and more harsh sanctions - which is what is leading to this potential conflict today.

However as a nation who aspires to be the most self sufficient on the planet, it can carry on. It's not ideal for them, it's the most remote civilians that will suffer, but it's certainly not enough to disrupt the state. NK does not rely on aid, it is self sufficient in that respect, but when the aid is cut and sanctions are imposed it is only the weakest civilians that will meet their demise.

I personally don't think there is a way to defeat North Korea without the loss of millions of lives. If I was the head of the US and Nato, I would simply make peace with it.

I want you to cite a source in which the people are willing to die for their ideology, as far as I can tell. It's not a willingness, it's a forced perception. Did you see the video where Jong-Un met soldiers, and in the background it looks like they're celebrating? Look at their faces and their body movements, their expressions show fear; their body movement shows rigidity which could imply it's for the camera or the officers telling them to do it without them free-willingly doing it. It's too easy to say from their footage, it's that or that without really knowing 100%. But my interpretation is that the celebrations are forced on them.

The size of a military makes little difference in today's world, strategy, training and actual combat experience makes the difference. The U.S could easily use their stealth bombers to take out any anti-aircraft emplacements then send in the slightly heavier stuff. But also the morale of their units, obviously we can't gauge their morale simply by television, no one truly knows what they're like. I would say confident, but they have not seen combat, and I'm sure they've not seen what the U.S is like in conventional warfare - and we don't need any examples, as we all know what they're like. I personally think it's foolish to believe the North Koreans would be capable of fending off an attack, there's too many factors to bring in. The U.S is engaged in multiple wars, each war has been slightly different in how it's fought. Iraq being more urban, and Afghanistan being rural. But let's also look at the U.S's mentality, I would imagine they'd make this a capitalist v communist war as they did with Korea in the 50s, 'Nam, and all their smaller proxy wars. That it self could be a factor in how the war is wrong. Psychology, as I'm sure you're aware - is vital.

You're correct in the U.S sanctions, but the U.S hasn't been inside North Korea literally controlling them. They can only do them through sanctions, military control is slightly different. As it would mean they'd control everything coming in, and China's a major economic 'partner', China relies heavily on trade with the world. For the sake of their economy, they'd likely side with the U.S (as we have seen in the past few days to some extent) But the U.S controlling them internally. But I disagree with that they're the main reason for leading to the tensions. Their ideology itself is a very confrontational one, Juche is a very violent nationalist and arguably racialist ideology. That's a factor in the tensions as well, you only have to read into the Cuban diplomat almost being lynched; forced abortions for women who bare Half-Chinese children. In essence, it's very similar to National Socialism as Hitler saw it. Kim Jong-il's regime is even weirder and more despicable than you thought. - Slate Magazine this is a pretty good report into racism in North Korea, it's systematic and institutionalised.

NK does not rely on aid, it is self sufficient in that respect, but when the aid is cut and sanctions are imposed it is only the weakest civilians that will meet their demise Now I'm going to need a source on this, as I have in a previous debate, sourced an article from an ex-North Korean on the state of the agriculture in that country. Most of the land is un-arable, those that live in the cities are forced their because of their 'allocated jobs', it's not a choice, there's no rural plight, it's all forced. Agricultural land (% of land area) in North Korea
The source of this article is the World Bank, which is actually quite respected for its data. But there's plenty of data on their land due to their recent so called 'reforms'.

The truth is, the way North Korea acts, peace isn't possible unless there's HUGE reforms in how they operate. A military-first policy is more for its authoritativeness towards its own people than external, they're not that likely to be invaded unexpectedly. Sanctions come after them rattling their sabre, and due to their aggressiveness, I really wouldn't trust them with a nuclear power station. Not to mention their explicit intentions to produce nuclear weapons. Whilst there is hypocrisy from the western states, we're and I hate to admit it. More diplomatically advance than them, we don't go around saying we're going to nuke you, and you and you. I don't think they're mature enough for a nuclear power station just yet, the way they react to anything is very childish - which sort of reflects their attitudes towards their behaviour.

They don't actually get along with China all that too...

Oh, and left-wing politics isn't anti-capitalist. Left-wing is a form of progressive capitalism. Anti-Capitalism is radical left-wing, as that seeks radical change rather than a progressive change. Liberal Democrats are left-of-centre, Green Party are left, but not anti-capitalist.

 

[GreersElbow]

That is quite an impressive post, considering there is so little truth in it.

There has not once been a single attempt at peace talks with North Korea since the war - instead there have been relentless words of war, threats, military shows of strength, and at one point 25 US army points set up around South Korea. Funny way of trying to make peace... Ten years ago they were even branded as one of the "axis of evil" along with Iran and Iraq who were minding their own business too.

..and no, it's not a dynasty either, even though it seems it. It's known as a personality of cult, which essentially means that the dear leaders are little more than personifications of their nation and its values - a lot like our queen. In reality they have little influence, or at least the most recent two - the people who actually manage the country even US intelligence would struggle to give you names.

I don't think you understand what a cult of personality actually is. It's a dynasty, it's a family that has taken control. The Central Committee's chairman is that of a Kim family member, the chairman is in a hell of a lot of control. Read Max Weber's description, as this is where the term is sociologically described. It's the use of media and propaganda to create a heroic authority, that's not reflective of their society's attitudes.

"A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. Cults of personality are usually associated with dictatorships. The sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as 'charismatic authority'."

 

[The Wizard]

This thread is shit

 

[vegster]

I don't think you understand what a cult of personality actually is. It's a dynasty, it's a family that has taken control. The Central Committee's chairman is that of a Kim family member, the chairman is in a hell of a lot of control. Read Max Weber's description, as this is where the term is sociologically described. It's the use of media and propaganda to create a heroic authority, that's not reflective of their society's attitudes.

"A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. Cults of personality are usually associated with dictatorships. The sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as 'charismatic authority'."

Having lots of people with guns helps this " Charismatic Authority " too.

 

[GreersElbow]

Having lots of people with guns helps this " Charismatic Authority " too.

That just reinforces the state's control, heavily armed police to the point they're a bit like the army.

Kind of like U.S police.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Has The Sun used the Kim Wrong-un headline yet, anybody able to confirm? Because you know they will.

 

[vegster]

Looks like there is a little bit of the jitters affecting the match favourites today. Although a banker for the victory there seems to be some secrecy creeping in to the American's about their star striker. Looks like they are going to keep the opposition guessing for a while.

BBC News - North Korea tension prompts US missile test delay

 

[Nibble]

This will come to nothing.

 

[Brovion]

Has The Sun used the Kim Wrong-un headline yet, anybody able to confirm? Because you know they will.

I dunno, but they did have an amusing little 'speech bubble' superimposed over a gathering of North Korean generals, which I shall repeat here in a desperate attempt to bring this thread back on track:

"Que sera sera,
Whatever will be, will be.
We're gonna start World War Three!
Que sera, sera!"

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I was thinking of going to this game. Are there any good deals on the Trans Siberian Railway? Or would it be better to use my Air Miles and fly to Tokyo?

 

[supaseagull]

Looks like the latest is that the North Koreans NOW want this match to be played behind CLOSED DOORS and is not allowing any neutral supporters in to watch the match!

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

I was thinking of going to this game. Are there any good deals on the Trans Siberian Railway? Or would it be better to use my Air Miles and fly to Tokyo?

Bus will get you to the Himilaya's (£600) but not sure if Megabus can then get you over to the Korean Penisula, perhaps get a taxi or rickshaw from there. Not sure you can get back the same day though...

12-day bus route created from UK to Himalayas - Indian Express

 

[vegster]

I bet the little Fat Boy is upset that Thatch went and died and stole the worlds attention.

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

I bet the little Fat Boy is upset that Thatch went and died and stole the worlds attention.

Maybe he'll ramp up his RHETORIC this week.

I swear, that word has been used more this week than ever before.

 

[vegster]

Maybe he'll ramp up his RHETORIC this week.

I swear, that word has been used more this week than ever before.

Will probably threaten to destroy North Korea's entire food reserves to prevent them falling in to the hands of the invaders. Or start killing his own people in order to "save " them from imperialists.

 

[Benson]

I was thinking of going to this game. Are there any good deals on the Trans Siberian Railway? Or would it be better to use my Air Miles and fly to Tokyo?

You may get to see some action from Tokyo as the Japanese have deployed 3 Patriot missile batteries around the city.

 

[perth seagull]

The Blue Samurai are having extra defensive training this week. The Asian champions are anticipating that the North Korean team will deploy Stoke City style long ball tactics against them.

 

[SeagullSongs]

When does this all kick off?

 

[JamesAndTheGiantHead]

When does this all kick off?

19.45