[Travel] Mill Road P&R Chaos

[BNthree]

It wasn't raining on Sunday, in fact it was glorious cycling weather.
I come from 30+ miles away, cycling the last 3 or so, when not using MR or the train, which is my preferred Sat 3pm mode of transport

@Bozza has covered most of my points.


In a crowd of 28,000 home fans, Id say no more than 500 thought cycling to the ground was an option.
Most of the remaining 27,500 either left early or late and left frustrated.
All of the 500 cyclists as happy as the could be after such a result.

I'm not saying cycling is for everyone, far from it.
But every single other mode of transport becomes x times better if those that can do, no different to the country at large.

So instead of putting up spurious reasons to not, then moan because everyone wants to do what you do, why don't you change and you take control of your time?

When it's viable for me I'm definitely going to start cycling to matches. Only about 6 miles for me so not that hard and takes about 35 minutes without getting too hot and bothered.

 

[jackalbion]

I had Saturdays in my head when replying. Forgot it was Sunday and no shuttle usually timetabled (the b*st*rds). So just 8 coaches an hour to ferry all the shoppers / day trippers / supporters into Brighton from Hove onwards. Dismal, especially when you consider weekend demand is pretty much back to pre-Covid levels. Glad I eschewed the train on last Sunday.

I realise this thread has been a bit derailed (pun not intended) by people moaning about the Coastway West service, but just to echo others it is terrible now. I realise it's been bad in the past too because of industrial action, but at least the basic service provision was better.

As Hove is my nearest station at least I have the option of getting the bus or walking if the trains are so packed I can't board, but I feel for those coming from further west. I took my 10 year old to a match recently and rather than wait for the shuttle I made the mistake of squeezing onto an already packed train (from memory this was about 2.5 hours before kick off). The overcrowding really upset her. I was pretty annoyed with myself and Southern at that point.

Unfortunately it sounds like the situation is unlikely to improve until the ancient 313 units are replaced.

I live at Portslade and similarly to you, I can get the bus, but the service of the Coastway west is dismal and overcrowded on weekends since they got rid of the West Worthing services every half an hour, which basically were crowd busters. Its inconvenient to have the shuttles at Hove, as the Brighton train and London train are within 5 minutes of each other so doesn't spread the options. Sunday is the same service pattern as pre pandemic, but Saturdays are increasingly worse. It's a pattern all across the country though which is a shame, train services being reduced to the bare minimum required by the DFT, because leisure travel is going up, but commuter services are staying steady around 70-80% pre pandemic users.

 

[el punal]

There is clearly a massive problem building and the club are ignoring it. I don’t know how one goes about this sort of thing, but is it time for a petition campaign, perhaps involving the Argus too, to get the club to take some action (or at least recognise the concerns and open a dialogue)? After all, there is no such thing as ‘free’ travel concessions as we pay for these in our season tickets.
I don’t like the thought of fighting the club (ie Tony Bloom) on anything but I equally don’t want to be pushed into giving up my ST or see thousands do the same.

I understand the problem, as we all do, but how do you know that the club are not discussing this with Southern and other transport providers? The club have always kept discussions private until they feel it’s right to make a public statement.

My feeling is that the club have probably told Southern “to pull their finger out” and start providing the service that they’re being paid to do. Southern have no doubt probably come up with some mealy mouthed response about why they can’t.

Regardless about the club’s stance in all of this it surely is down to Southern as transport providers to get a grip of the situation. They would be aware when there is a huge influx of rail users coming in and out of Brighton - well, they damn well should be aware. Their ineptitude is sometimes beyond belief and yet they trot out the same old lame excuses for their failings. In the meantime we’re the poor buggers that have to suffer.

 

[Madafwo]

It's not the platform at Falmer that's the issue, it's the platform at Lewes.

Hang on. In one bit you said busier trains have been lengthened for social distancing. Then in another that lengthening trains comes with running costs. I doubt there was any busier train that weekend than Brighton to Southampton, which was standing by Portslade with zero social distancing. So wouldn’t reallocating that stock to three of those trains there and back have wiped its face, cost wise, and done a better job of SD?

I'm failing to to see the "gotcha" that you think you've picked up on.

I'm simply correcting the assertion that the Southampton trains could have been lengthened without any cost. They couldn't.

To lengthen the SOU services you'd have higher track access charges, even if there were the extra coaches available sat doing nothing to do that, which they aren't. That then leads on to shortening services elsewhere to strengthen them elsewhere, which would lead to short forms, which is a KPI, so the DFT wouldn't really allow that. As I said, to do it without cost is inaccurate.

That's before you even get on to the way in which the railway receive income for the match day service, which I believe is a fixed amount per season/year. Why would the DFT (because let's be honest, they really do dictate everything the current railway does) provide extra coaches with no financial benefit when they can use those coaches in an area where it increases passenger numbers?

Or we could get on to the real issue, you don't like the railway or anyone that is associated with it, I assume that's down to years of commuting and the costs involved and the delays/cancellations, or is it a case of when you were a kid a driver didn't wave at you and toot the horn as he went past?

I generally like some of the stuff you post and find some of it funny but you really do turn into a bit of an arse when it comes to the railway, fine have an issue with the companies and DFT but you definitely cross into the realm of abusing the workers as well, most of which are hardworking dedicated people, but no, because they work for the railway you just think they're ****s and that definitely says more about you than it does about them.

 

[Stat Brother]

Alternatively you could Google:-

Halfords, Electric, Folding & bicycle.

https://www.halfords.com/bikes/elec...lectric-folding-bike---20in-wheel-750855.html (Not a recommendation, I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole)

But come on people, we've probably had 1 full season when the trains and P&R have been running well, in unison.

None of you, able to do so, can't tell me that wouldn't have been a good investment over the other 9 (nine) years.

 

[rippleman]

Paul Barber made it very clear to me yesterday that the club couldn’t do anything and I should contact Southern directly with my feedback. Which is odd as supposedly the club pay Southern pay money from the ‘subsidy’ for something ?

Irony is if I paid for train travel myself I’d be getting a bit back every now and again for the late running / cancellation of services via delay repay!

I have for a long time sought an answer about when the club pays Southern our "travel tax". If Barber is paying Southern (and the bus company) "up front" then there is no motivation for the transporters to improve the services they are delivering. I would assume that there will be Service Level Agreements setting out the services that the transporters will provide eg length and frequency of trains, and penalties if that service is not delivered.

Payments should be made by instalments throughout the season and based on the delivery of the agreed services.

 

[Stat Brother]

When it's viable for me I'm definitely going to start cycling to matches. Only about 6 miles for me so not that hard and takes about 35 minutes without getting too hot and bothered.

You'll be hot and bothered when you see the dizzying array of bicycles on display at the ground - well I am anyway.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

All of the 500 cyclists as happy as the could be after such a result.

This. The cycle lane from the city centre is superb. Couple of pints in town afterwards and an evening cycle home along the coast. It actually made the day enjoyable (despite the result).

Of course, as has been pointed out, there are days like today when another means of transport is required. But if there is a choice do as old man Tebbit said.

 

[jackalbion]

Unfortunately, I don’t think the club have any influence over Southern regarding West Coastway as it is not a direct connection to Falmer. I travel to watch the Albion home games on Southern trains from Southampton. On Saturdays you can be sure of the following :

1. It will only be a 4 coach service.

2. All seats will be taken by the time it leaves Chichester.

3. It will be rammed by the time it leaves Worthing.

4. From there onto Brighton the chances of anyone attempting to board is minimal.

I had a conversation with a Southern driver (who ironically drove the train for our previous home game) regarding the above points. He stated that there was absolutely no reason for Southern not to attach an additional 4 coaches. He also said it made no difference in performance of driving the train and that extra coaches were available en route and easily accessible.

Southern management seem to lack any foresight when it comes to their operation strategy. The perfect case in point is my chosen train for a Saturday home fixture at 3.00 pm. I catch the 10.28 am train from Southampton. As the destination is Brighton you can bet on large contingents of the following groups of passengers - football fans, day trippers, hen parties, stag parties, race goers ((Goodwood/Fontwell), and some en route to Gatwick Airport.

If I, as a humble passenger, can see the overcrowding problem on this route as a regular occurrence then why can’t someone in authority at Southern recognise and resolve the problem?

Oh, and don’t get me started on the return journey from Brighton to Southampton - that really is pot luck if you get a normal service.

You can’t put an 8 car train on the Southampton service due to the platform sharing at Southampton, it would have to reverse via The Goods Loop which only one depot have knowledge of. The focus is rightly (IMO) on making sure there’s enough carriages on Brighton to Lewes. The lack of foresight scrapping units is ludicrous though, but that was a DFT decision.

 

[Brovion]

You'll be hot and bothered when you see the dizzying array of bicycles on display at the ground - well I am anyway.

Most of my posts on this thread have been a bit O/T so here's another one: I'm not denying that people who can cycle perhaps should, but aren't the facilities for bike parking at the Amex a bit limited? If so then maybe as well as lobbying for better PnR sites/service we should be lobbying for a massive increase cycle racks? That surely is under the club's control. (Assuming no planning issues).

 

[jackalbion]

It's not the platform at Falmer that's the issue, it's the platform at Lewes.

Hang on. In one bit you said busier trains have been lengthened for social distancing. Then in another that lengthening trains comes with running costs. I doubt there was any busier train that weekend than Brighton to Southampton, which was standing by Portslade with zero social distancing. So wouldn’t reallocating that stock to three of those trains there and back have wiped its face, cost wise, and done a better job of SD?

There is no more stock though to be reallocated, there is nothing spare. There is nothing left and those that are left are rotting away in Hove sidings being used for spares with the units still running. There's a load of class 379s sitting spare somewhere in Anglia, but the DFT won't spend the money to take them on lease and send them out to companies. The way railways work in this country is a mess, its being driven into the floor by a Department who just need to save as much money as possible. The companies in reality have very little power over what stock they can have. In the mid term future there will possibly be some stock from Southeastern as they've just put out a tender for new rolling stock, and I struggle to see where the class 375s would end up if not at Southern.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

Most of my posts on this thread have been a bit O/T so here's another one: I'm not denying that people who can cycle perhaps should, but aren't the facilities for bike parking at the Amex a bit limited? If so then maybe as well as lobbying for better PnR sites/service we should be lobbying for a massive increase cycle racks? That surely is under the club's control. (Assuming no planning issues).

There was a post on here relatively recently quoting Barber that cycle capacity was maxed out because of planning issues. Essentially it came down to a limit on the amount of bikes that could be used in a busy exterior stadium bowl.

 

[Guinness Boy]

There is no more stock though to be reallocated, there is nothing spare. There is nothing left and those that are left are rotting away in Hove sidings being used for spares with the units still running. There's a load of class 379s sitting spare somewhere in Anglia, but the DFT won't spend the money to take them on lease and send them out to companies. The way railways work in this country is a mess, its being driven into the floor by a Department who just need to save as much money as possible. The companies in reality have very little power over what stock they can have. In the mid term future there will possibly be some stock from Southeastern as they've just put out a tender for new rolling stock, and I struggle to see where the class 375s would end up if not at Southern.

I'm failing to to see the "gotcha" that you think you've picked up on.

I'm simply correcting the assertion that the Southampton trains could have been lengthened without any cost. They couldn't.

To lengthen the SOU services you'd have higher track access charges, even if there were the extra coaches available sat doing nothing to do that, which they aren't. That then leads on to shortening services elsewhere to strengthen them elsewhere, which would lead to short forms, which is a KPI, so the DFT wouldn't really allow that. As I said, to do it without cost is inaccurate.

That's before you even get on to the way in which the railway receive income for the match day service, which I believe is a fixed amount per season/year. Why would the DFT (because let's be honest, they really do dictate everything the current railway does) provide extra coaches with no financial benefit when they can use those coaches in an area where it increases passenger numbers?

Or we could get on to the real issue, you don't like the railway or anyone that is associated with it, I assume that's down to years of commuting and the costs involved and the delays/cancellations, or is it a case of when you were a kid a driver didn't wave at you and toot the horn as he went past?

I generally like some of the stuff you post and find some of it funny but you really do turn into a bit of an arse when it comes to the railway, fine have an issue with the companies and DFT but you definitely cross into the realm of abusing the workers as well, most of which are hardworking dedicated people, but no, because they work for the railway you just think they're ****s and that definitely says more about you than it does about them.

Whoa.

Let's wind back to my original post on this point. I was told this by a current, serving Southern employee. Not some random bloke off the street. Maybe it's not doable but I was told by someone who should know that it was.

And, yes, after decades of commuting and a decade of attempting to get to the Amex and back via public transport, not to mention away games, I find the train service in the whole of the country woefully inadequate and I've given up giving a shit whose fault it is.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

When we first moved to the Amex there was a Transport Manager appointed who was a transport planning professional. He was responsible for the liaison with transport providers, park & ride facilities etc.

There doesn't appear to be anyone filling this role now - maybe it should be reinstated to be able to look into these issues.

 

[jackalbion]

Whoa.

Let's wind back to my original post on this point. I was told this by a current, serving Southern employee. Not some random bloke off the street. Maybe it's not doable but I was told by someone who should know that it was.

And, yes, after decades of commuting and a decade of attempting to get to the Amex and back via public transport, not to mention away games, I find the train service in the whole of the country woefully inadequate and I've given up giving a shit whose fault it is.

I don't think you hate rail employees by the way, I just wanted to correct the reasoning for why 8 car to Southampton is not possible. The stock is the biggest problem that is causing these issues, but I know those working at Southern pull out a lot with the limited resources available to provide a matchday service on Brighton - Falmer - Lewes, increasing that service to 6tph from 4 on a Saturday and to 5tph from 3 on a Sunday. More to the original point there is a massive transport worker shortage in this country, I know a lot of rail operators are struggling to get drivers for rail replacements at the moment, with a nationwide bus driver shortage, so are paying through the roof. The club will obviously have to compete with this. The infrastructure of transport in this country is crumbling and breaking at the seams, but thats more down to the state of the entire country. Travelling long distance on public transport most weekends its more often than not a shambles, the infrastructure cannot cope, and until anyone invests correctly, we are screwed. The idea of driving wages down and cutting costs will just lead to a crap system.

 

[Stat Brother]

Most of my posts on this thread have been a bit O/T so here's another one: I'm not denying that people who can cycle perhaps should, but aren't the facilities for bike parking at the Amex a bit limited? If so then maybe as well as lobbying for better PnR sites/service we should be lobbying for a massive increase cycle racks? That surely is under the club's control. (Assuming no planning issues).

Tel has answered that correctly.

What is funny is that a steward is placed at the train exit to stop anyone cycling up to the bike racks.
But obviously no such steward exists for the final whistle.

So on Sunday I was politely asked to dismount my steed, when comparatively few other people were around.
But did ride back down to the Bridge (at slower than walking pace) on the final whistle when it was rammed.

 

[Stat Brother]

Most of my posts on this thread have been a bit O/T so here's another one: I'm not denying that people who can cycle perhaps should, but aren't the facilities for bike parking at the Amex a bit limited? If so then maybe as well as lobbying for better PnR sites/service we should be lobbying for a massive increase cycle racks? That surely is under the club's control. (Assuming no planning issues).

Oh and the racks weren't full at 13:30, but there wasn't too much more room.

 

[Echo the Seagull]

The problems of the mill road p&r have been caused primarily by the double-edged sword of increased demand (due to shit trains, pandemic, loss of mithras etc) and reduced capacity (loss of bendy buses, traffic congestion etc).
Before the match it is just about bearable as the demand is spread out somewhat and i used to find if i waited for some 40 minutes after the game before leaving the stadium i would usually get to the top of the stairs up to the bus park before the queue started. Sadly this is no longer the case and on sunday i had the joyful experience of not even reaching the stairs by the time i heard the stadium announcement that the last park and ride buses would be leaving shortly- one hour and 15 minutes after the final whistle!
Like everyone i would like something to be done and i have a couple of suggestions. The obvious thing would be to somehow get southern fail to improve the train service and thus reduce p&r demand (if only!!!) but if that is a non goer how about using double decker buses to drop off at either the top or bottom of mill road and having 1 or 2 single deckers to shuttle people who are unable to walk to their car. The added benefit would be that the double deckers would not themselves get caught up in the queue up the hill and be able to get back to the Amex quicker. They could even use the buses for the racecourse once that queue is gone as it was so frustrating on sunday seeing racecourse buses leaving with about 7 people on them and two more empty ones waiting while we were still 100 deep climbing the stairs!

Going off train talk and bringing it back to Mill Road.
Using Dave's post above as a base, why not have 3 Mill Road routes?
The traditional one that has the single deckers going up the hill as normal.
Then 2 additional routes for double deckers:
a) a route to Patcham Place (via Carden Avenue) for a drop off before returning via A27
b) second Drop off at the top of Valley Drive (via A27) then return via a Westdene loop (assuming the Tongdean bridge to too low for double deckers?) back along the 27?
More capacity at either end for those willing to walk up/downhill or those that walk to use the service

 

[Brovion]

There was a post on here relatively recently quoting Barber that cycle capacity was maxed out because of planning issues. Essentially it came down to a limit on the amount of bikes that could be used in a busy exterior stadium bowl.

Tel has answered that correctly.

What is funny is that a steward is placed at the train exit to stop anyone cycling up to the bike racks.
But obviously no such steward exists for the final whistle.

So on Sunday I was politely asked to dismount my steed, when comparatively few other people were around.
But did ride back down to the Bridge (at slower than walking pace) on the final whistle when it was rammed.

Ah, ok, thanks for the replies. I wondered if planning was going to be the issue. So we can't really encourage more cycling. What a bummer.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

It wasn't raining on Sunday, in fact it was glorious cycling weather.
I come from 30+ miles away, cycling the last 3 or so, when not using MR or the train, which is my preferred Sat 3pm mode of transport

@Bozza has covered most of my points.


In a crowd of 28,000 home fans, Id say no more than 500 thought cycling to the ground was an option.
Most of the remaining 27,500 either left early or late and left frustrated.
All of the 500 cyclists as happy as the could be after such a result.

I'm not saying cycling is for everyone, far from it.
But every single other mode of transport becomes x times better if those that can do, no different to the country at large.

So instead of putting up spurious reasons to not, then moan because everyone wants to do what you do, why don't you change and you take control of your time?

a I haven’t a cycle
b I M a 64 year old with bad knees and after cycling for 30 years of my life had to give it up due to problems with my cartilages
c I know it wasn’t raining sunday you patronising twat
d I was making the point that cycling from mile oak is not an option.
e I will moan on here along with the other people who had a problem, but being a sanctimonious twat you would see any other point of view
f this is a message board where one gets things off one’s chest….
g. There is no point g

I am geniunely happy you are able to cycle…well done. You must be a very happy human being…sanctimonious but happy.