Mellor 3 Ward 4
Well-known member
The reason why the Labour Party will romp home at the next GE is precisely because there are so few like her left in the Labour Party.Zarah is one of the few good people left in the PLP. A good speech.
The reason why the Labour Party will romp home at the next GE is precisely because there are so few like her left in the Labour Party.Zarah is one of the few good people left in the PLP. A good speech.
I've tried to have a grown up discussion on a message board and have been told to grow up.Do grow up.
Tell me, what have you done to stop the conflict, and why hasn't it worked?
It's nothing to do with 'growing up' and everything to do with holding some morals - something neither Starmer nor Sunak appear to have. Those that stand by silent ( as the UK abstention at the UN is ) are implicit in the act of genocide. You can well argue that if either of them spoke in favour of a ceasefire it wouldn't make any difference but it does - it makes a difference for the UK to be on the right side of history. Can I, or any of us normal plebs, do anything to stop it ? No. But what I can do is voice my disgust at Israel murdering innocent civilians. Something none of our so called "leaders" have done and I will be doing so when the scummy weasels come and knock on my door begging for my vote at the next GE. Instead, Starmer and Sunak appear more concerned in appeasing Israel to protect the huge amount of trade we do with them as well as the intelligence they give us. Much like us selling billions of pounds worth of arms to another vile state - Saudi Arabia.Do grow up.
Tell me, what have you done to stop the conflict, and why hasn't it worked?
I've tried to have a grown up discussion on a message board and have been told to grow up.
(Have tried other things by the way)
Suggest we both leave it there for now
I have not shown apathy. But I'm long past emoting about something I can't affect. I personally think they should stop the attack on Gaza right now. And I say that fully in the knowledge that Hamas will rearm, rinse and repeat. And I say that because until the Israelis get their heads around not occupying the West Bank, and start negotiating some sort of settlement with 'ordinary' Palestinians (whoever they may be - presently they have no representation in the Hamas dictatorship), Israel can expect to be randomly bombed by Hamas.It's nothing to do with 'growing up' and everything to do with holding some morals - something neither Starmer nor Sunak appear to have. Those that stand by silent ( as the UK abstention at the UN is ) are implicit in the act of genocide. You can well argue that if either of them spoke in favour of a ceasefire it wouldn't make any difference but it does - it makes a difference for the UK to be on the right side of history. Can I, or any of us normal plebs, do anything to stop it ? No. But what I can do is voice my disgust at Israel murdering innocent civilians. Something none of our so called "leaders" have done and I will be doing so when the scummy weasels come and knock on my door begging for my vote at the next GE. Instead, Starmer and Sunak appear more concerned in appeasing Israel to prevent the huge amount of trade we do with them. Much like us selling billions of pounds worth of arms to another vile state - Saudi Arabia.
Those that show apathy towards what Israel are doing, as you appear to do, implicitly support it.
It's nothing to do with 'growing up' and everything to do with holding some morals - something neither Starmer nor Sunak appear to have. Those that stand by silent ( as the UK abstention at the UN is ) are implicit in the act of genocide. You can well argue that if either of them spoke in favour of a ceasefire it wouldn't make any difference but it does - it makes a difference for the UK to be on the right side of history. Can I, or any of us normal plebs, do anything to stop it ? No. But what I can do is voice my disgust at Israel murdering innocent civilians. Something none of our so called "leaders" have done and I will be doing so when the scummy weasels come and knock on my door begging for my vote at the next GE. Instead, Starmer and Sunak appear more concerned in appeasing Israel to protect the huge amount of trade we do with them as well as the intelligence they give us. Much like us selling billions of pounds worth of arms to another vile state - Saudi Arabia.
Those that show apathy towards what Israel are doing, as you appear to do, implicitly support it.
I have not shown apathy. But I'm long past emoting about something I can't affect. I personally think they should stop the attack on Gaza right now. And I say that fully in the knowledge that Hamas will rearm, rinse and repeat. And I say that because until the Israelis get their heads around not occupying the West Bank, and start negotiating some sort of settlement with 'ordinary' Palestinians (whoever they may be - presently they have no representation in the Hamas dictatorship), Israel can expect to be randomly bombed by Hamas.
It is complicated is it not? It is not black and white. Loudly condemning Israel is pointless, and calling for it is self indulgent virtue signaling.
I recall the first interview with a Palestinian official after the Israeli revenge attack started. He refused to say anything about the Hamas attack on Israel. All he wanted to talk about was the death of innocent Palestinians. My initial reaction was 'what an absolute **** - f*** off'.
This is not about British politics, and who is the most virtuous - Starmer or Sunk. If people are making up their minds over who to vote for in the general election on the basis of how strongly they condemn Israel (or indeed condemn Hamas) they are deluded about the importance of the UK in the world. May as well vote for the leader who most loves God. Indeed as I probably noted weeks ago, this delusion explains how so many people (still) support Johnson, and think Brexit is a brilliant thing. And Rwanda.
The best move here is to pressure America in private to pressure Israel to back off, while supporting the American position in public.
Incidentally had Blair not backed America over Iraq we would have had a tory government rather than a third labour term. If you think labour were balls-deep into the war against Sadam, then the tories were buried right up to the collar bone, with only their pointy heads visible.
So, sorry, it is all about growing up, rather than making presumptions about masts and nails and my sympathies. Perhaps I can steal a quote from Corbyn, friend of Palestinians, on this and say I condemn all acts of violence.
I agree with that. I am certainly free to call for an end to this and I call for it. I call for it. I call for it.I think you're wrong on this on numerous levels, Harry.
Number 1, we want our politicians to have some moral conviction. That's why Starmer's position is doing him no favours.
Number 2, privately applying pressure, which I'm sure UK parties are doing, is not working. It's time to go public.
Number 3, British power may not be what it once was but we do have an influence. The MO is to follow the States. They vote against a UN resolution, we abstain. This has happened countless times. However, there is a recent precedent where the standard path wasn't followed. In 2009, we were all set to do the normal dance when Gordon Brown decided to vote in favour of a ceasefire. The US switched to abstain and the bombs stopped within days.
Regardless of any of this, the main point is any right-thinking person can't support the continued slaughter and destruction. That goes for members of parliament and members of the public.
I agree with that. I am certainly free to call for an end to this and I call for it. I call for it. I call for it.
(Has it stopped yet?)
If Brown was able to make the US change its mind in 2009, good. What job did he have at the time, though? Ah! Prime Minister!
Look, I understand how upset people are about the deaths in Gaza, and if they are labour supporters they expect to hear the exhortations that map to this. Maybe Starmer could have immediately demanded a ceasefire. Personally had he done so I would have considered him having delusions of relevance.
Finally, backing Hamas is not a sign of moral conviction. Getting a ceasefire will simply allow Hamas to regroup, rinse and repeat. As I posted elsewhere it is a lot more complicated than Palestine good, Israel bad. I know that isn't what you think but a ceasefire will work only if Palestine reasonable, Israel trusting. Neither are the case.
Apologies. Its that I am fed up with Starmer being identified as the main reason why Israel continues to defenestrate Gaza. I'm not blaming Sunk so I can't fathom why (I suspect leftish) posters are blaming Starmer. It is whataboutery.Starmer doesn't need to "demand" a ceasefire but he could, of course, publicly support one. I feel we're a bit fixated on Starmer here though.
That bit in bold is a hell of a bad take though. To link wanting an end to civilian deaths to support for terrorists is just not on. Anyway, the bombing and destruction is not only morally wrong but strategically it makes no sense. What hostage negotiator advocates it? What anti-terrorism expert thinks you can bomb Hamas (and their ideology) out of existence?
The Israeli ambassador to the UK doesn't think the Palestinians should have their own state.
Be interested to know what she has planned for them other than the massacre and displacement thats going on now.
What do you suggest to achieve this?This whole event has been so f***ing depressing.
There needs to be a ceasefire, now.
Have you ever heard of Zarah Sultana?What do you suggest to achieve this?
So what do you suggest happens to Hamas? They govern the region, the answer can't be to do nothing and let them carry on.It is not a case that those arguing for a ceasefire are backing Hamas - that is a view fed by a far right agenda that does not support a peaceful two state solution or even a one state solution that recognises Palestinians as equal citizens to Jews. People must stop conflating ‘Palestinians’’ with Hamas - they are not the same - the majority of Gazans don’t even support Hamas politically, let alone their terrorist activities. This war is an ideological and territorial one between the Israeli far right government and the radical jihadists, Hamas and other jihadist terrorist groups operating in the region.
Tbh - I don’t know - clearly they need to be demilitarised- part of that has already happened- but flooding/contaminating Gaza’s fresh water aquifers with salt water in an act of environmental terrorism isn’t the answer, nor is killing over 10,000 infants and children. The rule of terror with which Hamas has ruled Gaza must come to an end - but something needs to fill the political vacuum that removing Hamas from power will leave - agreement on that will be hard to achieve but it is essential and must not be something imposed by the West - it has to be a joint Arab-West agreement with the full involvement of Palestinian civilian representation..So what do you suggest happens to Hamas? They govern the region, the answer can't be to do nothing and let them carry on.
There doesn't seem to be any appetite for a 2 state solution in the ME, is anyone actually calling for it?
What was the initial trigger which led Hamas (the terrorists) to attack, kidnap and rape Israeli (state) citizens in the first place on October 7th?