Just out of interest,the price of gold & Gordon Brown.

[Bold Seagull]

Yes, we left the Gold Standard just before the Great Depression of the 1920/30s, but currencies are backed by a nation's assets, which includes gold. When a nation starts "printing" money, it means there are no assets to back it up, rendering that money increasingly worthless. Today, there is a new, local, version of the Gold Standard, which is called the Euro. Luckily, the UK kept out of that one. Prior to that was the ERM, which the UK escaped from, hence John Major was able to beef up the UK's economy in the 1990s. But the scenario today is very similar to the scenario which precipitated the Great Depression and the real worry is whether people start to distrust the banks, and withdraw their money and keep it under the mattress. To some extent, that has probably already happened in the UK, because of the very low interest rate being paid to savers. When the banks in some of the troubled countries start faltering in paying the salaries of their customers, then the problems could get very much worse, because that means the banks themselves are having difficulty in accessing money.

The UK 'escaped' from? That is a really interesting way of describing Black Wednesday. George Orwell would be proud of that kind of deleted history!

 

[drew]

Gold is what backs all currencies. When you wave your Euros, Dollars or Pounds around, those notes are backed by the same value in gold. Or they were, in the UK, until the incompetent and ignorant Gordon Brown sold much of it. Bankruptcy is when a currency doesn't have the gold to back it, and when all other assets are worth less than the amount of currency going around. Had Mr Brown held on to this gold, he could now be selling it at this much higher price, and the UK would be less in debt. Which is, of course, the debt he primarily caused in the first place with his spendthrift policies where money was flung at the benefits system and into other black holes in the state machine. The UK now actually raises less in taxes than it forks out in benefits. How is the UK supposed to pay for the schools, hospitals and police, if the tax income won't even pay for it?

And what was the last tory government doing about spending money on schools, hospitals, the police etc etc. The NHS was on it's last legs, schools were falling down due to lack of capital investment and Police numbers were their lowest they had ever been.

Also, if we were selling gold then in a few years time someone would be arguing that we shouldn't have sold when it was $1900/oz as it has gone up to $3000/oz or whatever.

 

[Falmerfourtickets]

Brown is also responsible for the Lockerbie bomber debacle.

 

[brunswick]

it is not a labour / conservative issue - brown, blair, cameron, and clegg etc all are in the pockets of the rothschilds and bilderberg groups.

gold will go up to $3k in the next year and then hyper inflation will kick in....i got lumps of gold at 1350$ and will get more next spring regardless of its price.

gold can only go up, because the dollar can only go down....because the $ is backed by nothing and keeps being printed....creating more $ debt.

 

[User removed 4]

I don't know and it's not my business. These people aren't JUST politicians though are they, they are advisors to companies and sit on various boards and what not.

A hell of a lot of politicians are extremely wealthy, not just Mandelson.

I'll remind you of that next time you mention braying tory toffs or something similar.

 

[paddy]

Also, if we were selling gold then in a few years time someone would be arguing that we shouldn't have sold when it was $1900/oz as it has gone up to $3000/oz or whatever.

No no, you don't sell the gold. You hold onto it because it breeds confidence in the markets and suppresses the interest rates on UK bonds. With gold suppressing interest rates there would not be the same need for spending cuts which are primarily directed at ensuring the UK does not find itself in a sovereign debt crisis i.e. interest rates of 6% + on bonds. That's why it was, and will remain, wrong to sell the gold.

And the spending cuts are not driven by ideology. They are driven by the fact we rely on the Chinese and others funding our structural deficit and the fact that these investors are becoming increasingly skeptical about continuing to do so. If we did not signal our intent to stop the profligacy, interest rates on UK bonds would rise, leaving the cost of borrowing even more punitive than it already is. Quite apart from that I can't believe anyone thinks its fair to leave the next generation drowning in the debt of the last.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Nice bite Mr. Gullsworth but I clearly pointed out that Cameron & Osbourne are no saints and that they (or whoever inherited the mess from Brown) needed to sort things out fast. It is head in the sand time to pretend we can service the interest charges on the deficit with out trying to dramatically to reduce the debt itself. Things would be even worse but for having to borrow way above that anticipated - the alternative is to cut back even harder!

I also pointed out the tragic impact of the cuts on ordinary people when it should be the bankers who should feel the pain. The lack of conspicuous pain is annoying but not wholly unexpected given 'we' only elected a coalition Govt with Tories as the main partner. Doesn't make it right but only have ourselves to blame there then.

Thanks for reminding about another of Brown's follies - I agree with you about the Utilities profiteering for their shareholders but would suggest the culture and trend for this was set during the 13 years when he was in charge and could have done something about it. Some (but not all) of the utilities are subject to the volatility of world oil prices so not entirely within their control. As someone reliant on expensive heating oil (the annual cost of which has increased by the equivalent of an Amex season ticket) I am grateful that the Govt hasn't (yet) introduced the same levies as on petrol and diesel......then I would be fighting on the streets too!

 

[User removed 4]

From his memoirs I would imagine.

Perhaps he falsified his mortgage application, tut tut , tory sleaze eh ? oh dear he's labour so it's time to "move on" .

 

[sten_super]

Yes, historically. The value of a currency now is linked to the state of the economy in the country and the interest rates set by the central bank, surely. Gold is like any other asset. It's value is immaterial until you decide to sell. It's no good bleating about the value now compared to when it was sold because in years to come, the value will be higher than now.

I've no idea what point you're trying to make or think I was trying to make. My initial response was in answer to Chappers question of 'why gold?'. Yes currency values are now entirely dependent upon the strength of the economy in which the currency is circulated. The ideology behind holding gold is that it is resistant to changes in the price level (although the use of gold in industry and electronics was not envisaged at the time that gold was first used) as the fundamental 'worth' of gold should not change over time. The sale of gold by GB was clearly, with the benefit of hindsight, a mistake but a relatively minor one, as gold is worth more now (in 'real' terms) than it was at the time of the sale.

The massive spending cuts are not wholly linked to the state of the economy and more likely linked to the incumbent governments ideology. People seem to forget that when the Tories came in, the economy was on the up but now seems to be flat lining!!!!

I find the spending cuts issue interesting. I was broadly in favour of the idea to cut back public spending, but not on the basis that we were under some threat of a Greek-style debt problem (that appeared a complete Tory fallacy). However the ever-deepening Eurozone crisis has suggestedthat a lack of fiscal tightening probably would have sent bad signals out to the market and made lending more expensive (although clearly not at Greek levels).

On economic performance vs spending cuts, it's worth noting that the economy flatlined before any Tory policies were bought in, and in fact before many were even announced. The state of the economy has far more to do with the Eurozone/US debt crises and the slow global recovery than domestic spending cuts, IMHO.

 

[Bold Seagull]

On economic performance vs spending cuts, it's worth noting that the economy flatlined before any Tory policies were bought in, and in fact before many were even announced. The state of the economy has far more to do with the Eurozone/US debt crises and the slow global recovery than domestic spending cuts, IMHO.

Indeed. There is little GB could have done to have prevented this meltdown regardless of who was making policy decisions. A bit of gold here, or some over spending there is wholly irrelevant to the scale of the global problem. However the blues v reds debate is always polarised on a discussion board!

 

[HovaGirl]

And what have been Osbourne and Camerons response to the "banks unchecked burden of debt"......please do enlighten me, and while you are at it tell me how an "elected" goverment can blindly ignore rises in gas/electricity prices unheard of before while utility companies profits continue to swell shareholders coffers!
All the Utility watchdogs are not worth a wank IMO and this shithouse goverment looks the other way, strange when you think of it, the poorest having to pay while shareholders benifit.

Such gas and electricity price rises are not at all new. Perhaps you weren't a utility bill payer in the 70s and 80s. Shareholders have to have a dividend, because they are part-owners of a company and deserve a return on their investment, but profits don't only go to shareholders. Before they do, companies, particularly the utilities, pay out a lot for investment in newer and safer technologies and for the future. Only a Communist Government would interfere in the workings of private companies so the British Government can only make certain noises to encourage companies to pull their weight.

 

[simmo]

Perhaps he falsified his mortgage application, tut tut , tory sleaze eh ? oh dear he's labour so it's time to "move on" .

In fact he is the only minister of either party I know of whom lost a ministerial post twice because of wrong doings (was it Hinduja's passport first then the false mortgage application).....still according to some it is only the Tory party whom are the party of sleaze. I mean listen to this Tory sleaze, Robin Cook left his wife for his secretary, John Prescott and his two shags, David Blunkett and his American married lover in tow with love child, Tony Blair and Bernie Ecclestone, Cherie Blair and Peter Foster. Keith Vaz, can't even remember what his scandal was. Oh and the whole furore over parliamentary expenses exploded when the Tories were in power of course too.

 

[HovaGirl]

How the f*** is the Euro the new version of the gold standard? Currencies are dependent on the state of a countries economy, it's ability to trade products and services.

For example, the Bulgarian Lev is pegged to the Euro, so whatever value the Euro has, the Lev's value goes up and down with it and is always 2:1. The Eurozone countries have gone one stage further, and actually abandoned their currencies, so that 1 Euro in Greece has the same value as 1 Euro in France, Germany, etc. If I go to Paris and have a coffee, I pay, say €2.50. If I go to Athens, I might pay double that. So if you put coffee as a standard, then you get more cups of coffee for your Euro in Paris than you do in Athens. And yet the poor Athenian is probably earning half as many Euros as the Parisian doing the same job. So, in a way, it is four times more expensive for an Athenian to buy a cup of coffee than it is for a Parisian. So the value of the Euro remains to the same European standard, but how much it can buy varies from country to country. This makes import/export more difficult for those countries which have to pay more for the goods which a home country has to pay for and this is the very thing the whole EU idea was supposed to iron out. This new, false, currency standard is not working. There is only one way it can go.

 

[HovaGirl]

The UK 'escaped' from? That is a really interesting way of describing Black Wednesday. George Orwell would be proud of that kind of deleted history!

In retrospect, it was an escape. The UK economy boomed after that.

 

[Bold Seagull]

In retrospect, it was an escape. The UK economy boomed after that.

Spoken like a true politician. You must have been a party member either now or in the past?

 

[HovaGirl]

And what was the last tory government doing about spending money on schools, hospitals, the police etc etc. The NHS was on it's last legs, schools were falling down due to lack of capital investment and Police numbers were their lowest they had ever been.

The problem is that there hasn't been enough money for the NHS for decades. It has just become too huge and expensive and neither party really knows what to do about it. The 1970s was a particularly expensive time for the British State, under whatever Government. The three-day week, under the Conservative, Heath, cost the country billions. Labour, also lost billions due to Trades Union activity, with which it was more empathetic. Along came Mrs Thatcher, whom I'm proud never to have voted for. But it has to be said, she was fearless. She thought she had to break the unions to try and make the country profitable again, because their wage demands were pricing the UK out of the international markets. UK manufacturing and industry had become too expensive and not competitive enough, so now we buy coal from Poland, electricity from France, and everything else from everywhere else. We have nothing to sell but our weather and whatever The City can come up with, which was air. UK taxes don't even cover the nation's benefits payments, never mind the police, schools and NHS. This has all been building up since the end of WWII and now, it has spiralled completely out of control. The money just isn't there.

 

[HovaGirl]

Spoken like a true politician. You must have been a party member either now or in the past?

I started out as a Labour voter for years, then joined the Labour rump which was the SDP, voted against the merger with the Liberals in 1986 and was heartbroken when that happened. The nation lost a great potential Prime Minister in David Owen. His puppet, David Steel, was as Little Ronnie to Big Ronnie, the feed. Then I studied politics at University as a mature student, and joined the Conservatives once Maggie was out of the way. I always said it would take a generation to understand the damage she had caused.

 

[Storer 68]

She thought no such thing.

Now, Sir Keith Joseph on the other hand.................................

 

[HovaGirl]

it is not a labour / conservative issue - brown, blair, cameron, and clegg etc all are in the pockets of the rothschilds and bilderberg groups.

If you think UK politicians are corrupt, then you should try Greece or the USA. For an insight, read John Grisham's "The Appeal" (based on a true story) to see just how far US politicans and Big Business can go.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

In 1997, the Blair Government inherited the healthiest UK economy for decades, bequeathed to them by the outgoing Conservative Government under John Major. It was so healthy, Chancellor Brown congratulated himself by declaring that boom and bust were over, so he went on a massive spending spree, and sold much of one of the UK's major assets, the gold. He persuaded all and sundry to vote Labour, so cut taxes, increased the numbers of State jobs, increased benefits payments (not just to Brits but to practically the whole world) and increased immigration to impossible levels, just to create more Labour voters. And that is apart from changing voting boundary lines to shuffle more labour votes their way. Now, the Coalition Government has almost an impossible task to turn it all around. Cameron might just manage it on his own, but his hands are tied by the soul-searching LibDems, who haven't learnt a thing while in Government. But whatever Cameron does, and however well he does, there will be loud voices screaming that he's an unfeeling piece of Tory scum who only wants to pander to the rich. If you want to know which Government actually panders to the rich, think Mandelson. How does a man who has been sacked more than once from a Labour Government, re-emerge a few years later, being able to afford to buy an £8million pound house?

Was I only dreaming that when Labour won the GE in 1997 what they actually inherited was a NHS in terminal decline , the worst level of national debt for over 200 years and an 18 year ingrained culture of "rip somebody off at least once a day". Irn Bru Gordy sold the gold bullion to balance the books and kick start the economy. Without converting gold into cash , Teflon Tony would have looked a bit of a prick asking the yanks for a loan to finance the military escapades in Sierra Leone , Bosnia , Iraq and Afghanistan. Mass immigration from Eastern European countries wasn't the fault of Labour , they had to accede to EU law on the rights to work anywhere in the EU for EU citizens. Mandy should be able to afford a £8M mansion in central London now he has been elevated to the House of Lords , dont forget he was appointed EU commissioner in 2004 (expenses , expenses , expenses) , income streams from book royalties , after dinner speeches and other engagements etc etc.