[Albion] Hürzeler’s (Brighton) Tactics

[jcdenton08]

Just on this pace thing. Be aware of the headline top speed figures. A player like Van der Ven has an extraordinary top speed for a central defender, but it may well take him a while to get there. if Mitoma was facing up against him over a 3 yard sprint from a standing start like he does against a full back, I’d fancy Kaoru every time.

Not reaching any mind bending conclusions about the game here, just that that a players top speed doesn’t give you an idea of how quick someone turns and doesn’t give you an idea of how someone accelerates. It only tells you what they can get to over longer distances

A very good point. And body weight has to be considered as per the post after yours. If a player is on the back foot there’s another whole shift of weight and motion before they can accelerate. Body position is crucial to acceleration - this is the purpose of many training exercises

 

[Flounce]

Very surprised not to see Moder there actually, extraordinarily quick

Won’t be surprised to see him in the team on Sunday

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

A very good point. And body weight has to be considered as per the post after yours. If a player is on the back foot there’s another whole shift of weight and motion before they can accelerate. Body position is crucial to acceleration - this is the purpose of many training exercises

It is and I wonder if we could be defending more side on, if we're going to be on the half way line. Out of all the ways we're being caught out, the strikers bent run from deep seems to be the most lethal. Just seeing this happen should be a indication that we need to drop, not try to play them offside.

Also, amid all this talk about pace, I feel it's wise not to ignore Bob Paisleys comment about the first two yards being in the head. I think we can make this defending strategy work, I don't buy into the whaling harpoon thing after just one defeat all season, it will just take more practice which means, likely more defeats. It will also take remarkable communication and leadership on the pitch which can only come from Lewis. Making this plan work for his manager represents the biggest challenge of his career in my opinion

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Won’t be surprised to see him in the team on Sunday

Jakub is the fringest of all our senior fringe players. Nothing against the player, but i'd be amazed if he played

 

[jcdenton08]

It is and I wonder if we could be defending more side on, if we're going to be on the half way line. Out of all the ways we're being caught out, the strikers bent run from deep seems to be the most lethal. Just seeing this happen should be a indication that we need to drop, not try to play them offside.

Also, amid all this talk about pace, I feel it's wise not to ignore Bob Paisleys comment about the first two yards being in the head. I think we can make this defending strategy work, I don't buy into the whaling harpoon thing after just one defeat all season, it will just take more practice which means, likely more defeats. It will also take remarkable communication and leadership on the pitch which can only come from Lewis. Making this plan work for his manager represents the biggest challenge of his career in my opinion

Another really good post

 

[Swegulls]

Just Googled it because I was curious and to put it in some context. Those players are pretty darn quick, in footy boots on grass.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Hello Garry Nelson’s Left foot. You were questioning whether we have a strategy on the JPVH thread. I think we do and I and thought I’d say it how I see it here

I think the home league matches so far give a really good indication of what we’re trying to do. Against Man Utd, Forest and Ipswich, the idea is to win possession high up the pitch. That way we can score goals while their defence isn’t set. We might have a lot of possession, but this isn’t the aim. Once in possession , we’re much less looking to horseshoe around their box. We’re looking to play riskier passes and deliver much earlier and accept the risk of losing possession and being hit on the break.

To achieve this aim of winning the ball high up, Fab wants us to be compact. He says this a lot. What he means by this, I think, is that there are no big spaces between our outfield players. All 10 are expected to pressure the opponents and ensure there is no spare man for an easy outball. The downside to this compactness, is that if one player loses a man or is dribbled around or (if we’re in possession) misplaces a pass, there is masses of space in behind us which pacey forwards have been able to exploit.

There are clear upsides and downsides to this plan. I understand why you could make a case why it’s a bad plan. There are legitimate questions about whether we have the personnel to carry this out. But there is a plan and in my view, it’s clear for all to see.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Hello Garry Nelson’s Left foot. You were questioning whether we have a strategy on the JPVH thread. I think we do and I and thought I’d say it how I see it here

I think the home league matches so far give a really good indication of what we’re trying to do. Against Man Utd, Forest and Ipswich, the idea is to win possession high up the pitch. That way we can score goals while their defence isn’t set. We might have a lot of possession, but this isn’t the aim. Once in possession , we’re much less looking to horseshoe around their box. We’re looking to play riskier passes and deliver much earlier and accept the risk of losing possession and being hit on the break.

To achieve this aim of winning the ball high up, Fab wants us to be compact. He says this a lot. What he means by this, I think, is that there are no big spaces between our outfield players. All 10 are expected to pressure the opponents and ensure there is no spare man for an easy outball. The downside to this compactness, is that if one player loses a man or is dribbled around or (if we’re in possession) misplaces a pass, there is masses of space in behind us which pacey forwards have been able to exploit.

There are clear upsides and downsides to this plan. I understand why you could make a case why it’s a bad plan. There are legitimate questions about whether we have the personnel to carry this out. But there is a plan and in my view, it’s clear for all to see.

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure it is clear for all to see, or at least not on the streams I've been watching! Maybe live it's easier to spot.

If, how you describe it, is the plan then it would perhaps explain the players frequently moving into the same spaces and occasionally even running into each other. Teething trouble until they sort their movements out. I can live with that even if it is frustrating to watch in the short term.

Would these tactics explain the collapse of anything approaching shape in games? It feels like in every game there are sizeable periods where the game descends into what I keep describing as chaos. Shape disappears and players just run end to end through great swathes of open pitch.

I'll watch the Spurs game with all this in mind.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Would these tactics explain the collapse of anything approaching shape in games? It feels like in every game there are sizeable periods where the game descends into what I keep describing as chaos. Shape disappears and players just run end to end through great swathes of open pitch.

You're right about the apparent chaos. The Wolves game in the Carabao cup, at times resembled a 5 year olds game, the way spaces opened up and players were out of position.

To me, the answer to your question, is that this is an inevitable consequence of an ideologically driven doctrine of pressing. If your players are tasked with never leaving a spare man, if your defenders are asked to aggressively win the ball, inevitably it means getting sucked out of position.

JPVH's role in the Forest counter attack goal was a good example. He's miles out of position, highly likely because he's been asked to attack the ball if he thinks he can win it. It's a huge change from the relatively rigid defensive structures employed by our last 3 managers. It will take some getting used to.

 

[raymondo]

Saw this today - Van De Ven the fastest player in the PL apparently. Minteh is our fastest.

View attachment 189703

Minteh at CB then

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

You're right about the apparent chaos. The Wolves game in the Carabao cup, at times resembled a 5 year olds game, the way spaces opened up and players were out of position.

To me, the answer to your question, is that this is an inevitable consequence of an ideologically driven doctrine of pressing. If your players are tasked with never leaving a spare man, if your defenders are asked to aggressively win the ball, inevitably it means getting sucked out of position.

JPVH's role in the Forest counter attack goal was a good example. He's miles out of position, highly likely because he's been asked to attack the ball if he thinks he can win it. It's a huge change from the relatively rigid defensive structures employed by our last 3 managers. It will take some getting used to.

Sounds a bit Bielsa-y. If you're right then there is method in the apparent madness and it is something that can be improved upon over time.

Lets see how it plays out over the season. Whether we crack it...or it cracks us!

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Sounds a bit Bielsa-y. If you're right then there is method in the apparent madness and it is something that can be improved upon over time.

Lets see how it plays out over the season. Whether we crack it...or it cracks us!

Not a bad comparison.

He's had a few ups and downs in the course of his career. I sense that will be the same with us this season.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Jakub is the fringest of all our senior fringe players. Nothing against the player, but i'd be amazed if he played

Same here.

And i love our Polish prince.

 

[Beanstalk]

Hello Garry Nelson’s Left foot. You were questioning whether we have a strategy on the JPVH thread. I think we do and I and thought I’d say it how I see it here

I think the home league matches so far give a really good indication of what we’re trying to do. Against Man Utd, Forest and Ipswich, the idea is to win possession high up the pitch. That way we can score goals while their defence isn’t set. We might have a lot of possession, but this isn’t the aim. Once in possession , we’re much less looking to horseshoe around their box. We’re looking to play riskier passes and deliver much earlier and accept the risk of losing possession and being hit on the break.

To achieve this aim of winning the ball high up, Fab wants us to be compact. He says this a lot. What he means by this, I think, is that there are no big spaces between our outfield players. All 10 are expected to pressure the opponents and ensure there is no spare man for an easy outball. The downside to this compactness, is that if one player loses a man or is dribbled around or (if we’re in possession) misplaces a pass, there is masses of space in behind us which pacey forwards have been able to exploit.

There are clear upsides and downsides to this plan. I understand why you could make a case why it’s a bad plan. There are legitimate questions about whether we have the personnel to carry this out. But there is a plan and in my view, it’s clear for all to see.

Really like this highlighting of how we’re trying to catch teams before their defence is set. Something we’ve done well so far but not in the second half against Chelsea imo.

Interesting that attacking before the defence is set was highlighted as a masterstroke by Emery last night v Bayern. Catching the defence on the back foot and overloading them centrally does create space to attack in which creates great chances.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Sounds a bit Bielsa-y. If you're right then there is method in the apparent madness and it is something that can be improved upon over time.

Lets see how it plays out over the season. Whether we crack it...or it cracks us!

I recall Dunk referring to the first couple of months under RDZ were baffling, but it gradually became clear.

Possibly a similar issue with Huerzeler.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

I recall Dunk referring to the first couple of months under RDZ were baffling, but it gradually became clear.

Possibly a similar issue with Huerzeler.

Carnage is the word he used, I think.

 

[Jim in the West]

Loads of really good posts on this thread - very informative stuff. From my viewpoints so far (North Stand, half way up at home, and just the Emirates away - and quite low down), the key thing I notice is the absolute ferocity of our desire to win the ball back quickly - especially in the attacking third. Plus the speed of our neat interplay around and in the opposition penalty area. The latter is obviously still WIP. Plenty to work on, but when they click, these actions are great to watch. Exciting times

 

[Machiavelli]

You're right about the apparent chaos. The Wolves game in the Carabao cup, at times resembled a 5 year olds game, the way spaces opened up and players were out of position.

To me, the answer to your question, is that this is an inevitable consequence of an ideologically driven doctrine of pressing. If your players are tasked with never leaving a spare man, if your defenders are asked to aggressively win the ball, inevitably it means getting sucked out of position.

JPVH's role in the Forest counter attack goal was a good example. He's miles out of position, highly likely because he's been asked to attack the ball if he thinks he can win it. It's a huge change from the relatively rigid defensive structures employed by our last 3 managers. It will take some getting used to.

On your last para, I'm going to differ. You're right on JPVH against Forest which I found baffling because it reminded me of what RDZ got his CBs to do, which was to go after their player even if it meant following into the defensive area. This left us wide open and was increasingly exploited by opposition in our bad second half of last season. From what I've seen of our CBs is that they're more organised and don't go on walkabout (JPVH vs Forest being the exception), and I also think that Weiffer/DCM is there to provide more solidity and structure -- this was very evident against Everton for example.