Hillsborough

[Lord Bamber]

The issue in my mind is that (and I'm honestly not trying to defend the bloke because of my profession), the decision to open that gate that day must have been made with the best of intentions. I can't believe for a single second that someone in charge of that situation thought "Oh f*** 'em, let 'em all pile in and we'll see what happens". He was under huge pressure, presumably, because he was getting reports left right and centre of people being crushed outside, and he made the ill-fated call to try and ease that. He must live with that every day (I'm assuming, without looking it up, that he is still alive). Not many of us are in a position where a single mistake would end up costing so many lives.

On the other hand, I understand from my limited knowledge of the report, that Duckenfield is thought to have lied about a number of the issues that arose from the disaster, either to cover his own arse, or those of his force. That would be unacceptable, and you can easily see why people feel like something important has been missed out. I presume it's this kind of thing that the JFT96 campaign are after transparency on.

This is surely what they are after. I dont think there is one of the families who thought Duckenfield did it deliberately but if its closure, answers, transparency that they are after, having lost their loved ones, they deserve nothing less.

 

[drew]

Not semantics at all.

It's a fundamental difference.

Maybe in your mind. Let's be honest, there may well have been a large crowd outside but then add into the mix a few, maybe only as little as 10 or 20 drunken fans and the pushing and shoving will get worse very quickly. That aggravates the situation and therefore is a contributary factor to the situation. You read how you like though.

 

[e77]

Not one specific person has ever been charged with anything over the instutional death of 96 men, women and children, nor over the subsequent institutional and governmental cover-up, and deliberate mis-briefing of journalists; the relatives of the dead would like someone, somewhere to accept some blame, or make an apology. Not much to ask is it?

Assuming you're old enough to breed or marry, imagine for a second your husband and both your daughters died at the cinema.
Would you be happy to say "ah well, shit happens. Wonder what's on at the Vue this weekend?". No, you'd want some f*cker somewhere to swing for it.
And if you had one iota of humanity in you, you'd fight for their memory until someone did.

I think you are confusing information becoming available and anything being done about it.

For the record I think what happened that day was an outrage and I really hope the relatives get some closure out of this but don't hold your breath about anything being done about it.

 

[e77]

Why do you need anything sensational? The truth (the whole truth) is what is being asked for.

The truth? We already know it was caused by a botched Police operation in an antiquated stadium. I am sure the newly released documents will give a few more details and a few titbits from Thatcher in cabinet.

If this gives some closure then great, but don't expect anything more.

 

[The Large One]

Maybe in your mind. Let's be honest, there may well have been a large crowd outside but then add into the mix a few, maybe only as little as 10 or 20 drunken fans and the pushing and shoving will get worse very quickly. That aggravates the situation and therefore is a contributary factor to the situation. You read how you like though.

Nothing to do with 'my mind'. I'm reading Taylor's words in clear, unambiguous English.

To be a contributory factor, they (the 'drunk' and the 'ticketless') would have to be part of the process which makes the police's mind up to open the gate. Taylor makes no such reference to that being the case. They were 'an aggravating factor' - in other words, a side issue; a bunch of pissheads who just happened to be there. Taylor makes no reference to the pushing and shoving as being the reason for the gates opening; the decision to open the gates was based on the number of people in such a confined space - not how the drunken fans were behaving, or who was ticketless.

It really is that clear.

 

[The Large One]

The truth? We already know it was caused by a botched Police operation in an antiquated stadium. I am sure the newly released documents will give a few more details and a few titbits from Thatcher in cabinet.

If this gives some closure then great, but don't expect anything more.

We don't know what role the government played in the police lying to the FA and to the media. There is speculation that that (among other things) might well be the case.

What happens as result of the release of papers is another issue.

However, it would be good to think that closure would be reached soon - which one would hope is the final outcome.

 

[e77]

We don't know what role the government played in the police lying to the FA and to the media. There is speculation that that (among other things) might well be the case.

What happens as result of the release of papers is another issue.

However, it would be good to think that closure would be reached soon - which one would hope is the final outcome.

I am sure it is all leading to a Cameron apology, which I suppose means something as head of government although easy for a politician who had nothing to do with it (although he was working at Conservative Central Office at the time).

 

[Lord Bamber]

We don't know what role the government played in the police lying to the FA and to the media. There is speculation that that (among other things) might well be the case.

What happens as result of the release of papers is another issue.

However, it would be good to think that closure would be reached soon - which one would hope is the final outcome.

Totally agree with this post, I truly hope it would be the final outcome but am concerned that, like so many other "cover-ups" "conspiracy therories" sadly I dont think it will be.

 

[Lord Bamber]

We don't know what role the government played in the police lying to the FA and to the media. There is speculation that that (among other things) might well be the case.

What happens as result of the release of papers is another issue.

However, it would be good to think that closure would be reached soon - which one would hope is the final outcome.

Totally agree with this post, I truly hope it would be the final outcome but am concerned that, like so many other "cover-ups" "conspiracy therories" sadly I dont think it will be.

 

[Aldo]

For those that care or can be bothered please sign this petition Petition to force the Sun newspaper to release its Hillsborough sources and documents - e-petitions thanks!

JFT96

 

[drew]

For those that care or can be bothered please sign this petition Petition to force the Sun newspaper to release its Hillsborough sources and documents - e-petitions thanks!

JFT96

what on earth will be next. Why do people think an e-petition will get a privately owned paper to release such information! The e-petition to get the government to have a debate to release cabinet papers was a reasonable course but this is just a gimmick.

 

[clapham_gull]

what on earth will be next. Why do people think an e-petition will get a privately owned paper to release such information!

Because they have nothing to lose.

They have already published an apology for the story describing it as "the worst mistake in our history" and it's not exactly secret who the sources were even if the names are not known as yet.

Added to the that, the internet (or the general public's constant recorded and updated opinion) is a massive threat to print media. They've have to learn how to deal with it and it's already setting the tone of newspapers like the Sun. They struggle to set the tone or spark off the debate these days the WWW is doing that and they follow.

I call it the "democracy of opinion" and newspapers are scared of ignoring it even if we or they don't always agree with it.

That's why newspapers are obsessed with allowing people to comment underneath on their stories.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Because they have nothing to lose.

They have already published an apology for the story describing it as "the worst mistake in our history" and it's not exactly secret who the sources were even if the names are not known as yet.

Added to the that, the internet (or the general public's constant recorded and updated opinion) is a massive threat to print media. They've have to learn how to deal with it and it's already setting the tone of newspapers like the Sun. They struggle to set the tone or spark off the debate these days the WWW is doing that and they follow.

I call it the "democracy of opinion" and newspapers are scared of ignoring it even if we or they don't always agree with it.

That's why newspapers are obsessed with allowing people to comment underneath on their stories.

Agree with most of that - although my own view is that the quality of opinion is not necessarily advanced by the current trends.

But I don't think the Sun should have to reveal their sources, nor will they be forced to (though it may leak out 'semi-officially', and we all have a good idea anyway).

Without that protection of sources a lot of excellent journalism in this country wouldn't happen, including this site's favoured papers like the Guardian and the Indy. And that is to say nothing of comparisons with other countries, where failure to protect sources sees corrupt regimes get away with stuff for years, and sources/journalists killed.

Who the sources were isn't really as relevant as the fact that the paper used some very wrong information without proper checks.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

BBC News - David Cameron asked for Hillsborough comments apology

Insensitive or accurate or both?

 

[clapham_gull]

BBC News - David Cameron asked for Hillsborough comments apology

Insensitive or accurate or both?

Not offended by the main comment which possibly had some truth but a bit of a dick trying to make political capital out of releasing the papers.

It was this government that has agreed to release the Hillsborough documents. Yet, every time I hear the word Hillsborough, I see Andy Burnham on the TV

Whoops.