Hain

[Lokki 7]

I don't agree that 7 digit bonuses should be handed out, I think the money should be distributed evenly rather than given away through charitable donation. distribute the money throughout the company. i've had situations where my hard work, my sweating to reach targets has gone unrewarded whilst my manager earnt a massive bonus for it.

A couple of countries tried that. Seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't quite work out as they'd hoped.

 

[Juan Albion]

eh? Where am I making things up? Capping, restricting, scaling back, it's all the same disincentive and you're the one who said he's suggesting a figure of £x, not me.

I gave an example based on what he said, I did not 'suggest a figure'. You made things up when you said he was asking the City workers to work for the average wage. He didn't, he said reduce their bonuses by 66%. My example was that for someone currently getting a million, that would be .33 million. And a scale back is NOT the same thing as a cap - how can it be? That's just illogical.

I made it quite clear that if you follow Hain's logic then the only way that you can remove discord is all of us earning the same otherwise there will always be envy. Meanwhile the traders have absolutely no incentive after they reach this mythical cap of a 1/3 million that you are bandying around.

No, that's not his logic, it is your illogic. There will always be disparities, and he didn't even say they should scrap the bonuses although most people don't even get bonuses. You are, quite simply, making things up.

And for the Nth time, I never said there should be a CAP. He quite clearly talks about giving TWO THIRDS. How can a fraction ever be a cap? Please do tell.

 

[Lokki 7]

all sales people are parasites feeding of the wealth created by others

I don't see much point in arguing with that as I have a suspicion that nothing I could say would change you mind.

 

[Buzzer]

And just where has anyone ever said anyone should be limited to only earning a certain amount?

ummm...you, when you typed:

"then all he is suggesting an annual bonus of around .33 million is quite enough."

Overall earnings will be capped too. If you pay someone say £100 and then have a maximum bonus of £30 then a salesman would work like billy-o to get the bonus and then need not do anything for the rest of the year. If you increase salaries to incentivise him then it's merely another form of bonus!

Whether you like it or not, these people bring in far far more money into the economy than someone who say, works full-time caring for the mentally ill. These are bonuses on profits for the company and, ergo, more revenue for the taxman.

Anyhow..I'm outta here but in the meantime, it's nice to see a perma-tanned luvvie in a Paul Smith suit keeping the revolution alive.

 

[Parson Henry]

I don't see much point in arguing with that as I have a suspicion that nothing I could say would change you mind.

Have a go Jim, you know you want to!!

 

[Buzzer]

Got a few more minutes so might as well carry on

I did not 'suggest a figure'.

ooh!. you fibber:

He's not, though, is he? He hasn't said anything about their salaries (as far as I know), and if the quote above is correct, then all he is suggesting an annual bonus of around .33 million is quite enough. I know I could live on that. Couldn't you? [/B]

To quote the article: Mr Hain hinted firms could face new laws or tax hikes to reduce inequality......."There's a real problem of people on average incomes feeling there's a sort of super-rich class right at the top,"

If Hain feels that there is resentment caused by this inequality then how is it illogical to assume that this inequality would only be removed if we all earned the same? I thought this was classic Marxist theory. It's one of the pillars on which he foresees a socialist path to a a true communist society. The whole theory's a load of bollocks but you knew that already didn't you.

 

[tedebear]

Still can't believe that there are people here who would have the government meddle in the profits of companies.

Companies operate in order to make profits, they pay their taxes, and thats fine. Distribution of profits to employees is their business and DEFINATELY not the governments....

Socialism foistered on Capitalism doesn't work...

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

wealth can never be created by a salesman,be he a share trader or car sales executive.he can only exploit the work of others.
all sales people are parasites feeding of the wealth created by others

Er... you've lost me there.

As someone once said, nothing happens until somebody sells something.

I'm not suggesting sales people are the only people who create wealth, but if they don't do their bit, no wealth is created.

And unless you can get utopian communism to work I'm not sure that's a great basis for an economy.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Still can't believe that there are people here who would have the government meddle in the profits of companies.

Companies operate in order to make profits, they pay their taxes, and thats fine. Distribution of profits to employees is their business and DEFINATELY not the governments....

Socialism foistered on Capitalism doesn't work...

Sometimes companies have to be MADE to take their snouts out of the trough and distribute some of their profits to their employees. The bleating of the CBI over the introduction of the minimum wage was shameful.

 

[Lammy]

Hen

 

[Man of Harveys]

Socialism foistered on Capitalism doesn't work...

With respect, that's rubbish. Social democracy seems to work perfectly well in countries which are, Cuba and North Korea aside, all capitalist.

 

[The Clown of Pevensey Bay]

What sort of bonuses do the cleaners and caterers at the offices of Merril Lynch, Goldman Sachs etc get?

 

[tedebear]

how are these people generating wealth?all they are doing is destroying established companies and creaming of the surpluss value.the wealth is there in the viable businesses they feed upon.
this situation is not unlike the fools who 'release'capital in their houses to fund new cars or holidays.the traders being akin to the salesmen earning commision.
wealth can never be created by a salesman,be he a share trader or car sales executive.he can only exploit the work of others.
all sales people are parasites feeding of the wealth created by others

A few midly wild generalisations there, I suggest you attend the "you too can learn to love a salesman course" at your local Lloyds TSB branch...

 

[tedebear]

With respect, that's rubbish. Social democracy seems to work perfectly well in countries which are, Cuba and North Korea aside, all capitalist.

I don't think so mate, it is human nature to want more for ones self, anytime this is reduced the workforce will look to wherever else it is being paid, you cap the bonuses that the big boys (and girls) are being paid here in London, there will be a mass exudus from the city....no doubt....

Might seem nice and feel good on paper, but long term the two do not mix...

 

[Man of Harveys]

Might seem nice and feel good on paper, but long term the two do not mix...

They mix every day, thank god. Does the state have no involvement in your life whatsoever - no healthcare or schooling provision, no child benefit or even use of a police force to protect where you live? None of those things are remotely "capitalist" - pure capitalism wouldn't provide anything but a noose for uneconomic old people, say, but most of us (hopefully) accept that it's a measure of a civilised society to look after them, even if it doesn't actually make money.

 

[tedebear]

They mix every day, thank god. Does the state have no involvement in your life whatsoever - no healthcare or schooling provision, no child benefit or even use of a police force to protect where you live? None of those things are remotely "capitalist" - pure capitalism wouldn't provide anything but a noose for uneconomic old people, say, but most of us (hopefully) accept that it's a measure of a civilised society to look after them, even if it doesn't actually make money.

Hold your horses there MoH, I think you've completely got me wrong, of course my taxes pay for all of these things, and rightly and gladly so. I have no issue with this at all, its a just and correct thing for a society to do.

However, I think this thread is completely different? correct me if I'm wrong. Capitalism provides the money for these social services by taxing. A company is taxed, as is the individual (obviously) however after a company is taxed it is then entitled to return whatever portion of the excess to its individuals if it so wishes. Hain is attempting to cap this pool, which I believe is wrong.

People I used to work for and with, would be off to New York or Paris, or even Sydney if they knew that their bonuses, guaranteed or otherwise would be significantly reduced, thus the economy looses their tax contribution...

I can understand people don't like Capitalism, but alot of people don't understand (or refuse to understand) that society today cannot function without it...

Very general but all my opinion!

 

[Leekbrookgull]

New Labour. Tory in disguise.

 

[ditchy]

it's fairly simple

my employer,one of the FTSE100'S trolls along making shedloads of money and employing thousands of people.
has a share price of 10quid
along comes a german company and offers 16 quid a share

all the greedy bastards running it and all the banks and institutions owning it rub ther hands with glee and snatch the foreign money.

the germans cant afford it without masive loans and by divesting non core buisness,so i get sold to the highest bidder.

alll the banks and institutions pay out massive bonuses(out of the profits made from selling the shares they owned) to the traitors who sold a massive british success story down the river

its the shareho,lders who have the vote if they decided to take the foreign shilling its they who have sold you .. not the people running it .if the talent at your company is good it can always leave to another company or even start its own if its tht good .. .

 

[ditchy]

Good for Hain. I'm sure there are some people working hard out there in the City, but no harder than anyone else who does a fair day's work. 4,000 getting bonuses of a million or more? For what? Half the time they are just pushing money around, and making the bank charges and insurance for the average bloke in the street go through the roof. Okay, they need to have some incentives, but more than a million? Give me a break. Hain is right, and if you need more than a third of a million in bonuses to motivate you then there is something wrong with you.

Its no different to the concept of paying 150k a week to john Terry .. he has a talent if chelsea dont pay somebody will .. its called market forces ..

 

[ditchy]

If your company is a FTSE 100 company then the majority shareholders are without doubt pension schemes. At a guess, it's quite likely your final salary pension scheme is a pretty big shareholder too. Also, if it's a FTSE 100 company then it's highly unlikely to be asset stripped as it would be worth more than the sum of its parts (hence the FTSE 100 ranking).

Merchant banking and insider dealing rules prohibit traders and bankers to own or even have an interest in the dealings. Their profits come from commission on the sale.

Very big companies diversify and split businesses off all the time - it's a fact of life.

Your final salary pension scheme may well be closed to new members and may also wind up but an actuarial valuation of its worth is due to you should you wish to transfer it into a new pension scheme. This will increase if the scheme has made a massive capital gain by the sale to the foreign company. The closure of the pension scheme is not peculiar to you - most, if not all FTSE250 companies have tried to close the final salary schemes to new members and offer incentives for existing members to switch. It's not the fault of the companies though - 2 major factors have caused this.

1) Gordon Brown's raid on pensions started in 1997 when he stopped tax credits on dividends for non-taxpayers. At a stroke he effectively took 20% of the profits of most pension schemes for himself. The figure to date runs into billions nad billions. How do you think his spending has been financed all this time?

2) FRS17 forced companies to put onto their balance sheets the notional value of the surplus or deficit of the company's pension schemes. A real hammer to crack a nut, as many companies which make very healthy profits all of a sudden looked like they were going under because of notional deficits not liable for say 20 or 30 years and valued at whatever the share price was on a particular day.

The City of London traders make more money for the Government and bring in more wealth into this country than probably any other industry. We are very very very good at it. Taking away the incentives would not just be detrimental - it would be suicidal to the UK economy.

Not that this Government gives a toss about that. Just look at the way they crippled the UK IT contracting industry with IR35.

Sorry, mate but Peter Hain is just talking classic socialist envy bollocks. I don't see him offering to live on the average wage. Why ask those that actually bring wealth to the country to do so then?