Hain

[ditchy]

Nice to see labour haven't lost it .. Perhaps some of the money can be spent on maintaining his perma orange suntan




Hain's charity plea to City firms

Peter Hain says huge bonuses increase social discontent
City firms should donate two-thirds of their bonus pots to charity rather than giving employees six-figure bonuses, cabinet minister Peter Hain says.
Massive bonuses - which totalled £8.8bn this Christmas - were fuelling envy and social discontent, the Northern Ireland Secretary told the Sunday Telegraph.

Mr Hain hinted firms could face new laws or tax hikes to reduce inequality if they failed to regulate themselves.

He said there could be a "big fight" if companies did not act responsibly.

Envy promoted

"There's a real problem of people on average incomes feeling there's a sort of super-rich class right at the top," he told the newspaper.

"Four thousand City workers receiving more than £1m each in bonuses. People don't feel that's proportionate. We've lost a sense of moral corporate responsibility here.

"That sort of thing creates a society where you start getting envy being promoted and a sense of real antagonism and that breeds all sorts of socially undesirable behaviour."

Mr Hain, who is a candidate for Labour's vice-leadership, suggested two-thirds of the £8.8bn should be given to charity or inner-city regeneration projects.

"Let's work this out on the basis of consensus, let's not have a big fight over it, because it will come to a big fight otherwise," he said.

 

[Buzzer]

Nice to see labour haven't lost it .. Perhaps some of the money can be spent on maintaining his perma orange suntan




Hain's charity plea to City firms

Peter Hain says huge bonuses increase social discontent
City firms should donate two-thirds of their bonus pots to charity rather than giving employees six-figure bonuses, cabinet minister Peter Hain says.
Massive bonuses - which totalled £8.8bn this Christmas - were fuelling envy and social discontent, the Northern Ireland Secretary told the Sunday Telegraph.

Mr Hain hinted firms could face new laws or tax hikes to reduce inequality if they failed to regulate themselves.

He said there could be a "big fight" if companies did not act responsibly.

Envy promoted

"There's a real problem of people on average incomes feeling there's a sort of super-rich class right at the top," he told the newspaper.

"Four thousand City workers receiving more than £1m each in bonuses. People don't feel that's proportionate. We've lost a sense of moral corporate responsibility here.

"That sort of thing creates a society where you start getting envy being promoted and a sense of real antagonism and that breeds all sorts of socially undesirable behaviour."

Mr Hain, who is a candidate for Labour's vice-leadership, suggested two-thirds of the £8.8bn should be given to charity or inner-city regeneration projects.

"Let's work this out on the basis of consensus, let's not have a big fight over it, because it will come to a big fight otherwise," he said.

Grrrrr....the man's a fuckwit and looks like a bad cloning experiment with Simon Jordan and Edward Heath. The Government should stay out of business and business should stay out of social welfare.

I'd suggest he start by reading Adam Smith or Friedman or even
Levett's recent book Freakonomics.

 

[Chesney Christ]

I kind of agree with him.

 

[Lokki 7]

The problem is, you take away the incentive and you drive the financial industry to New York, Paris or Frankfurt and as a nation we really can't afford for that to happen. People getting million pound bonuses may be a bit galling, but the alternative scenario of those people and the companies that employ them moving abroard is far worse. I'm amazed Hain has been so naive.

 

[who me?]

and what about those of us who's security needs to be destroyed to create the wealth handed out in those bonuses?

my employer.sold down the river by banks,institutions and its own directors to a german company smaller than itself.my division sold on to finance the takeover. my final salary pension scheme soon to be closed to me upon transfer of my employment and my future in the hands of some faceless suit who may break up the division i work for even further

 

[Lokki 7]

and what about those of us who's security needs to be destroyed to create the wealth handed out in those bonuses?

my employer.sold down the river by banks,institutions and its own directors to a german company smaller than itself.my division sold on to finance the takeover. my final salary pension scheme soon to be closed to me upon transfer of my employment and my future in the hands of some faceless suit who may break up the division i work for even further

I'm am genuinely sorry if you have suffered personally, but I don't really understand what has happened to you so can't really comment on how it is related to the wider picture. What I can say is that more wealth is being created than destoryed, but I wouldn't be surprised if individuals lost out along the way as this happens in every industry unfortunately.

 

[who me?]

it's fairly simple

my employer,one of the FTSE100'S trolls along making shedloads of money and employing thousands of people.
has a share price of 10quid
along comes a german company and offers 16 quid a share

all the greedy bastards running it and all the banks and institutions owning it rub ther hands with glee and snatch the foreign money.

the germans cant afford it without masive loans and by divesting non core buisness,so i get sold to the highest bidder.

alll the banks and institutions pay out massive bonuses(out of the profits made from selling the shares they owned) to the traitors who sold a massive british success story down the river

 

[who me?]

oh

and all the profits and wealth created and all the talents and brains that made this company a british owned global success story and all the world beating british products we make are now german property,to do with and exploit for the benefit of the new parent company

 

[Vlad the Impala]

Good for Hain. I'm sure there are some people working hard out there in the City, but no harder than anyone else who does a fair day's work. 4,000 getting bonuses of a million or more? For what? Half the time they are just pushing money around, and making the bank charges and insurance for the average bloke in the street go through the roof. Okay, they need to have some incentives, but more than a million? Give me a break. Hain is right, and if you need more than a third of a million in bonuses to motivate you then there is something wrong with you.

 

[Buzzer]

it's fairly simple

my employer,one of the FTSE100'S trolls along making shedloads of money and employing thousands of people.
has a share price of 10quid
along comes a german company and offers 16 quid a share

all the greedy bastards running it and all the banks and institutions owning it rub ther hands with glee and snatch the foreign money.

the germans cant afford it without masive loans and by divesting non core buisness,so i get sold to the highest bidder.

alll the banks and institutions pay out massive bonuses(out of the profits made from selling the shares they owned) to the traitors who sold a massive british success story down the river

If your company is a FTSE 100 company then the majority shareholders are without doubt pension schemes. At a guess, it's quite likely your final salary pension scheme is a pretty big shareholder too. Also, if it's a FTSE 100 company then it's highly unlikely to be asset stripped as it would be worth more than the sum of its parts (hence the FTSE 100 ranking).

Merchant banking and insider dealing rules prohibit traders and bankers to own or even have an interest in the dealings. Their profits come from commission on the sale.

Very big companies diversify and split businesses off all the time - it's a fact of life.

Your final salary pension scheme may well be closed to new members and may also wind up but an actuarial valuation of its worth is due to you should you wish to transfer it into a new pension scheme. This will increase if the scheme has made a massive capital gain by the sale to the foreign company. The closure of the pension scheme is not peculiar to you - most, if not all FTSE250 companies have tried to close the final salary schemes to new members and offer incentives for existing members to switch. It's not the fault of the companies though - 2 major factors have caused this.

1) Gordon Brown's raid on pensions started in 1997 when he stopped tax credits on dividends for non-taxpayers. At a stroke he effectively took 20% of the profits of most pension schemes for himself. The figure to date runs into billions nad billions. How do you think his spending has been financed all this time?

2) FRS17 forced companies to put onto their balance sheets the notional value of the surplus or deficit of the company's pension schemes. A real hammer to crack a nut, as many companies which make very healthy profits all of a sudden looked like they were going under because of notional deficits not liable for say 20 or 30 years and valued at whatever the share price was on a particular day.

The City of London traders make more money for the Government and bring in more wealth into this country than probably any other industry. We are very very very good at it. Taking away the incentives would not just be detrimental - it would be suicidal to the UK economy.

Not that this Government gives a toss about that. Just look at the way they crippled the UK IT contracting industry with IR35.

Sorry, mate but Peter Hain is just talking classic socialist envy bollocks. I don't see him offering to live on the average wage. Why ask those that actually bring wealth to the country to do so then?

 

[Juan Albion]

I don't see him offering to live on the average wage. Why ask those that actually bring wealth to the country to do so then? Why ask those that actually bring wealth to the country to do so then?

He's not, though, is he? He hasn't said anything about their salaries (as far as I know), and if the quote above is correct, then all he is suggesting an annual bonus of around .33 million is quite enough. I know I could live on that. Couldn't you?

 

[Buzzer]

He's not, though, is he? He hasn't said anything about their salaries (as far as I know), and if the quote above is correct, then all he is suggesting an annual bonus of around .33 million is quite enough. I know I could live on that. Couldn't you?

People will still resent traders earning that much. But why stop it at an arbitrary figure there? If he wants to avoid any envy or discord then, according to his own formula there will only be harmony when we are all earning the same. Hence, the average wage.

Meanwhile the traders - knowing that their bonuses are capped have no incentive to work harder , sales fall, revenues tumble, Government tax receipts in corporation tax, PAYE, capital gains tax all fall through the floor.

 

[Juan Albion]

People will still resent traders earning that much. But why stop it at an arbitrary figure there? If he wants to avoid any envy or discord then, according to his own formula there will only be harmony when we are all earning the same. Hence, the average wage.

Meanwhile the traders - knowing that their bonuses are capped have no incentive to work harder , sales fall, revenues tumble, Government tax receipts in corporation tax, PAYE, capital gains tax all fall through the floor.

Once again you are making things up like you did before. He didn't say cap them, he said scale them down. There is a difference.

These are ridiculous numbers that people are getting as bonuses. Can you really justify them? Are you honestly saying .33million isn't enough incentive?

(BTW, even if they only got a 'bonus' of .33 million, that would still be equivalent to more than 20 years wages to some hardworking people who probably do a heck of a lot more for society than these moneyshufflers.)

 

[Lokki 7]

Are you honestly saying .33million isn't enough incentive?

(BTW, even if they only got a 'bonus' of .33 million, that would still be equivalent to more than 20 years wages to some hardworking people who probably do a heck of a lot more for society than these moneyshufflers.)

Put it another way. Lets say we had in the past limited say Richard Branson to earning .33 million? Would he still be living here generating jobs and wealth for the UK? I doubt it very much. If you create a glass ceiling, people will simply move and if that happens we become uncompetitive. We would lose the whole industry to another centre and the loss in revenue, jobs and wealth for the UK would be disasterous. Whether .33million is enough for one person or not is an irrelevant question.

 

[Buzzer]

Once again you are making things up like you did before. He didn't say cap them, he said scale them down. There is a difference.

These are ridiculous numbers that people are getting as bonuses. Can you really justify them? Are you honestly saying .33million isn't enough incentive?

(BTW, even if they only got a 'bonus' of .33 million, that would still be equivalent to more than 20 years wages to some hardworking people who probably do a heck of a lot more for society than these moneyshufflers.)

eh? Where am I making things up? Capping, restricting, scaling back, it's all the same disincentive and you're the one who said he's suggesting a figure of £x, not me.

I made it quite clear that if you follow Hain's logic then the only way that you can remove discord is all of us earning the same otherwise there will always be envy. Meanwhile the traders have absolutely no incentive after they reach this mythical cap of a 1/3 million that you are bandying around.

I agree that there are people who work as hard and even harder for a lot less money but I bet they don't individually bring in millions and millions for their employers and millions and millions for the taxman. These are bonuses after all and are based on sales. City traders are like footie players. Very very few top people and only around professionally for 20 years due to the lifestyle pressures of working 60+ hour weeks in a hothouse environment.

I really would have expected a slightly more sophisticated policy from a Government minister.

 

[Juan Albion]

Put it another way. Lets say we had in the past limited say Richard Branson to earning .33 million? Would he still be living here generating jobs and wealth for the UK? I doubt it very much. If you create a glass ceiling, people will simply move and if that happens we become uncompetitive. We would lose the whole industry to another centre and the loss in revenue, jobs and wealth for the UK would be disasterous. Whether .33million is enough for one person or not is an irrelevant question.

And just where has anyone ever said anyone should be limited to only earning a certain amount? What a waste of time it was you typing that. No-one has said that. You guys really need to read things a little more closely. First of all, we are not talking about overall earnings, we are talking about incentive bonuses. Second, he is not saying cap them, he is saying scale them back to a reasonable amount. So, yes, whether a third of what they get now is a 'reasonable amount' is a very relevant question.

 

[Lucky_C]

I don't agree that 7 digit bonuses should be handed out, I think the money should be distributed evenly rather than given away through charitable donation. distribute the money throughout the company. i've had situations where my hard work, my sweating to reach targets has gone unrewarded whilst my manager earnt a massive bonus for it.

 

[Lokki 7]

And just where has anyone ever said anyone should be limited to only earning a certain amount? What a waste of time it was you typing that. No-one has said that. You guys really need to read things a little more closely. First of all, we are not talking about overall earnings, we are talking about incentive bonuses. Second, he is not saying cap them, he is saying scale them back to a reasonable amount. So, yes, whether a third of what they get now is a 'reasonable amount' is a very relevant question.

Sorry but to me it's the same thing. Limit the absolute amount or limit the % you can keep, either way you drive people out. Glad to know you appreciate my posts though.

 

[tedebear]

If Peter Hain thinks he can dictate to companies what they should be paying as incentive bonuses then he's a stupid stupid man...

If the bonus pools are trimmed - people will go where they aren't New York, Europe etc....

If the government decided to have a say in employee salaries - its a sad sad day...

There are people (and I speak from personal experience) who generate in excess of 10x the bonus they are paid, most of what they generate remains in this country...so its a very shortsighted idea...

 

[who me?]

how are these people generating wealth?all they are doing is destroying established companies and creaming of the surpluss value.the wealth is there in the viable businesses they feed upon.
this situation is not unlike the fools who 'release'capital in their houses to fund new cars or holidays.the traders being akin to the salesmen earning commision.
wealth can never be created by a salesman,be he a share trader or car sales executive.he can only exploit the work of others.
all sales people are parasites feeding of the wealth created by others