Gus Poyet - right or wrong?

[glasfryn]

seems to me that people are getting too sensitive over this whole racism bit I'm sure that all those years ago when Clyde Best and Ade Coker played for West Ham and the shite they had to put up with even from their own fans will be having a bit of a giggle about this furor as I said before its a mans game its like a battle and things are said and done that are in the heat of the moment and are normally forgotten within a few minutes its not like the whole of the league players are institutionally racist unlike the BNP or as said by a judge conducting an inquiry the Met.
we are essentially saying here in all of these cases one man saying one thing to someone who is rather sensitive or trying to make a mountain out of a molehill which I don't know.
last year in the F1 practice in Spain some of the crowd blacked up taking the piss out of lewis Hamilton did he care no he could'nt give a flying f**k because he is better than them like all those years ago when Clyde Best and Ade Coker put up with all the abuse they got they ignored it and after a while it did go away and even when it did'nt they just tucked another goal in some of the players now might learn a lesson from them.

 

[loco61]

right


gus is always right

 

[Easy 10]

As ever, the context is what is decisive, especially with the idiosyncratic way that Poyet often makes his points.

A few days ago, Poyet said of Sepp Blatter: 'I respect him as Fifa president'. That has a particular meaning, especially coming hot on the heels of Blatter's controversial comments about racism. Obviously, we all know the full sentence of 'I respect him as Fifa president but I don't listen to him when he talks about football' which has an altogether different flavour.

In a more elongated way, those sentences that you pick up on also have an unfortunate meaning taken on their own and you describe that unfortunate meaning well. However, those sentences are part of passages where Poyet makes it clear that people have a duty to not racially offend ('I completely adapt. I don't call anyone negro'). So it's not like he is saying it's OK to racially offend someone, even unintentionally, even in one moment. Rather, he wants a single comment to be seen within a much bigger context where all the available evidence suggests a footballer is not racist. I agree the wording is rather ham-fisted, and we should make allowances for his broken English, in the same he is asking allowances to be made for Suarez's adaptation to British culture, but the underlying point is sound. Within the context of the rest of the passage of conversation it was part of, it appears to me that Poyet was trying to say: 'You are not racist when you appear to go against one, but [you are] if you go against the whole world of different colour and nationalities. That is being racist, not saying one word in one moment.'

That is a terrific post.

It still doesn't really make me any more comfortable with what Gus has come out with, but you have very effectively highlighted how small portions of what he says can be picked out in isolation, focussed on, and made to sound a lot worse than (I'm sure) what he intended.

"Ham-fisted" perfectly describes how Gus has approached all this. Still wish he'd left well alone, but what a top post.

 

[Easy 10]

Where has this monkey noise idea come from?
Making monkey noises at Nigel Adkins or Peter Reid... would not be racist no. Of course it wouldn't. Their race hasn't even entered into any of this process

I guess I can see where you may becoming confused though. The monkey chanting you get in other football stadiums across Europe is aimed at black people and chanted at them solely because they are black. This assumption that all black people are monkeys is racist. In my opinion it's horrible, uneducated, pitiful and it makes my skin crawl how these 'fans' are allowed to get away with it.

That is completely different from calling Peter Reid a monkey. Agree?

Not really, no.
You are treading an extremely thin line when you start describing people as "monkeys". You can ponce around it with semantics all you want, but in a stadium environment, with a large number of people keen to take the piss out of the opposition players and manager (and yes, we all do it), when you start going down the "monkey" route then you are crossing a certain line. Your protestations that "oh, Mr Reid / Adkins / Poyet, its not racist to chant that you're a like a monkey because what we actually mean is you just, errr, look a bit like one" is hardly going to come across. Is it ? Its hardly justifiable regardless.

So I say again. If you believe Poyet looks like a monkey, does that give you carte-blanche to go "ooo oooo oo" at him ? Or are you actually being "cleverer" than that, in like, you know, a non-racist more sophisticated way ? And how would you make that come across ?

Well ?

 

[Captain Sensible]

Poyet is always right!!!

 

[fire&skill]

Having just read the transcript of his comments, I'm disappointed (but not surprised) at the reaction. This reaction is mainly from the 'talkSPORT' radio station; an organisation employing 'pundits' that regularly pillory the likes of Fabio Capello for coming here and having the temerity not to learn the intricacies of the English language. In effect, blaming the national team's problems on not having an English (sic) manager.

I've read Gus's comments more than once and all I read is somebody asking for the right of innocence till guilt is proven, and a request for understanding of different cultures.

Once again, the hang 'em/flog 'em brigade are taking the high ground, and it saddens me.

 

[tedebear]

Gus is right. Its an uncomfortable subject which some people immediately get their nose out of joint from before actually listening to what is being said. Sometimes someone has to say the truth even if its sensitive. Even to stupid old Big Nose Ferguson.

 

[SouthamptonGuy]

Not really, no.
You are treading an extremely thin line when you start describing people as "monkeys". You can ponce around it with semantics all you want, but in a stadium environment, with a large number of people keen to take the piss out of the opposition players and manager (and yes, we all do it), when you start going down the "monkey" route then you are crossing a certain line. Your protestations that "oh, Mr Reid / Adkins / Poyet, its not racist to chant that you're a like a monkey because what we actually mean is you just, errr, look a bit like one" is hardly going to come across. Is it ? Its hardly justifiable regardless.

So I say again. If you believe Poyet looks like a monkey, does that give you carte-blanche to go "ooo oooo oo" at him ? Or are you actually being "cleverer" than that, in like, you know, a non-racist more sophisticated way ? And how would you make that come across ?

Well ?

Again, I am unclear as to where you get the impression I am (or Saints fans are) going to make monkey chants at someone?

But you have now changed your argument from 'is this racist' to 'would people look at this and consider it racist'.

My personal answer is
Concerning REFERRING TO AN INDIVIDUAL (Gus Poyet in this instance) and the reasons why some football fans across England call him a monkey (he looks like one), that is not racist. If fans called him a monkey as a way of attacking/dehumanising his race, that would of course be racist. People who understand what racism is would agree.

Now concerning CHANTING.If football fans, as you have kept suggesting, make monkey chants towards Gus at stadiums because they think he looks like one, then it is not racist. For the same reason above. The race of Gus isn't the reason, not even remotely, for the chanting.

BUT given that monkey chanting across Europe is aimed at black people, under the insinuation that all black people are monkeys, I imagine some would assume (wrongly in this hypothetical case) its racist chanting.

In summary I don't think you will ever get monkey chanting in England because of the connotations and links with racism in Europe.
Just like you don't get many children called Adolf anymore, because of it's connotations.
I dont think I can explain it clearer.

To quote Vince Noir "It's all about context"

 

[k2bluesky]

This issue has got blown out of all proportion, footballers are not the most eloquent in their use of English and like everyone, will look for an adjective to add when calling someone a c*** as it personalizes the insult, just as you would anywhere else, who on here hasn't called someone a fat C*****, ginger c****, Scottish C**** and many other adjectives relating to race, creed, sexual orientation or religion - Terry and Suarez were merely using 'black' as their adjective and it was not meant not as some serious racial abuse as all the players knew, like Gus says, if 'black' becomes an illegal adjective to use before C****, then so should ginger, scottish, fat etc. Once again an over the top reaction by the UK press, desperate for a story..

 

[Working class pride]

This issue has got blown out of all proportion, footballers are not the most eloquent in their use of English and like everyone, will look for an adjective to add when calling someone a c*** as it personalizes the insult, just as you would anywhere else, who on here hasn't called someone a fat C*****, ginger c****, Scottish C**** and many other adjectives relating to race, creed, sexual orientation or religion - Terry and Suarez were merely using 'black' as their adjective and it was not meant not as some serious racial abuse as all the players knew, like Gus says, if 'black' becomes an illegal adjective to use before C****, then so should ginger, scottish, fat etc. Once again an over the top reaction by the UK press, desperate for a story..

careful my friend, years ago they burnt people at the stake for saying the world was round. Those with perceived, instead of actual wisdom have spoken, and it is perceived wisdom that counts

 

[LamieRobertson]

That is a terrific post.

It still doesn't really make me any more comfortable with what Gus has come out with, but you have very effectively highlighted how small portions of what he says can be picked out in isolation, focussed on, and made to sound a lot worse than (I'm sure) what he intended.

"Ham-fisted" perfectly describes how Gus has approached all this. Still wish he'd left well alone, but what a top post.

Totally rights to praise that post ....as we all know the media love to take a few words or phrase out of a passage and give people a completely different understanding of what was actually said......talks port and 5 live kept on about the bit where Gus said the country needs to adapt to the player ...but ignored his comment that he mentioned about the player adapting

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Having just read the transcript of his comments, I'm disappointed (but not surprised) at the reaction. This reaction is mainly from the 'talkSPORT' radio station; an organisation employing 'pundits' that regularly pillory the likes of Fabio Capello for coming here and having the temerity not to learn the intricacies of the English language. In effect, blaming the national team's problems on not having an English (sic) manager.

I've read Gus's comments more than once and all I read is somebody asking for the right of innocence till guilt is proven, and a request for understanding of different cultures.

Once again, the hang 'em/flog 'em brigade are taking the high ground, and it saddens me.

Me too-if full and total agreement with you!

 

[Brixtaan]

Gus might have to go, which is a shame as he was a very promising manager.

Ha ha brilliant , let's turn up the Internet outrage a notch. It's getting worse than the Daily Mail on here.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Gus knows what Suarez said, he know whats right and wrong. Whatever it was, Evra Lied about him saying it ten times. So who do the FA trust? Evra that lied, or Suarez that has apparently been racist. Evra it seems.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Gus knows what Suarez said, he know whats right and wrong. Whatever it was, Evra Lied about him saying it ten times. So who do the FA trust? Evra that lied, or Suarez that has apparently been racist. Evra it seems.

The FA will know that Evra knew the connotation of the word used by Suarez because Hernandez uses the same word with his team mate.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This issue has got blown out of all proportion, footballers are not the most eloquent in their use of English and like everyone, will look for an adjective to add when calling someone a c*** as it personalizes the insult, just as you would anywhere else, who on here hasn't called someone a fat C*****, ginger c****, Scottish C**** and many other adjectives relating to race, creed, sexual orientation or religion - Terry and Suarez were merely using 'black' as their adjective and it was not meant not as some serious racial abuse as all the players knew, like Gus says, if 'black' becomes an illegal adjective to use before C****, then so should ginger, scottish, fat etc. Once again an over the top reaction by the UK press, desperate for a story..

Either you're 15 years of age, or have Asbergers. Which is it?

 

[the right footed denilson]

At the end of the post match interview today he says he was just saying what 95% of the people think.
Not me Gus, not me.