Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[TomandJerry]

Athens has until Sunday to agree with its lenders on a credible reform agenda so as to start negotiations for a new ESM program and potentially some bridge financing until talks are concluded and parliamentary sign-off has been achieved.

If the Sunday deadline is missed, Grexit will materialize.

 

[Triggaaar]

The post you quoted was aimed at those who are constantly criticising the EU for this mess and seemingly ignoring everything else.

The EU is certainly getting a lot of criticism, but I don't know if anyone thinks that's all it is.

I also made the point that numerous right leaning posters who criticised the Labour Party for profligate spending and poor fiscal policy are now happy to back the equally profligate Greece

There may be people who are suggesting that some of the debt needs to be written off as it's simply not possible for all of the debt to be paid, and you're interpreting that as backing Greece, which might not be the case.

That said I do think the Greeks are the architects of this mess and I don't think the government are helping themselves.

I don't even disagree with you, it was just the odd comment that didn't match your usual politics.

 

[Buzzer]

Much of this thread is about how the Greeks got in this mess, I would argue it no longer matters. The Greek state is disintegrating as each day passes and it makes any chance of any stable repayment plan even harder.

Whammo. That there is the crux of it. Forget the agreements, the politics and all the posturing. There is no medicine in the world that would maintain the status quo and fix Greece. There needs to be change.

The most galling thing for the Greeks must be to look back at recent history and see that the Germans (as the Economics nobel laureate Paul Krugman pointed out) have NEVER paid their debts. There's a symmetry to all of this until you get right to the end:

The Greeks overspent, The Germans invaded France. The Greeks had to pay their debts back so they borrowed more. The Germans didn't want to pay their debts under the Versailles Treaty so invaded France again. The Greeks got into even bigger debt. The Germans got into much bigger debt than the Greeks. The Greeks can't pay it, they simply can't. The economy is too damaged. The Germans couldn't pay their debt the second time around and their creditors recognised that regardless of the cause that this cycle must be broken. The creditors including Greece wrote off the German debt for the good of Europe and Germany. Unfortunately for Greeks, the Germans aren't as forgiving.

 

[simmo]

Diplomatic niceties were abandoned as it emerged Greece’s new finance minister Euclid Tsakalotos had not come armed with detailed proposals.

According to the BBC this morning as all around the (financial) world waited for the next detailed Greek proposal, the new Greek Finance Minister came to yesterday's meeting with some hand written bullet points on Hotel Notepaper.

One of those bullet points was something along the lines of...............Don't be too triumphilist.

If this is true it is like some sort of comedy.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Whammo. That there is the crux of it. Forget the agreements, the politics and all the posturing. There is no medicine in the world that would maintain the status quo and fix Greece. There needs to be change.

The most galling thing for the Greeks must be to look back at recent history and see that the Germans (as the Economics nobel laureate Paul Krugman pointed out) have NEVER paid their debts. There's a symmetry to all of this until you get right to the end:

The Greeks overspent, The Germans invaded France. The Greeks had to pay their debts back so they borrowed more. The Germans didn't want to pay their debts under the Versailles Treaty so invaded France again. The Greeks got into even bigger debt. The Germans got into much bigger debt than the Greeks. The Greeks can't pay it, they simply can't. The economy is too damaged. The Germans couldn't pay their debt the second time around and their creditors recognised that regardless of the cause that this cycle must be broken. The creditors including Greece wrote off the German debt for the good of Europe and Germany. Unfortunately for Greeks, the Germans aren't as forgiving.

Maybe the solution might be to calculate what todays value of the debt Greece wrote off for Germany was and take that off what they owe to Germany ? Oh, silly me, the Germans are too arrogant to do that.

 

[TomandJerry]

Guy Verhofstadt, the leader of the liberal group in the European Parliament, warns that Europe “is sleepwalking towards a Grexit”.

He is laying into Tsipras for not coming up with detailed reforms.

"I am even ready to come to Athens to discuss it with because I like such a challenge."

He also outlines his plan for reform:

End the clientelist system in Greek politics i.e. party cronyism and rewarding loyalists with jobs.
Downsize the public sector
End privileges - privileges of the military, the orthodox Church, the Greek islands and the political parties.

 

[TomandJerry]

"Nigel Farage tells Tsipras to quit the Euro"

"The European project has started to die.

The plan has failed. The whole of the Mediterranean finds itself in the wrong currency.

There is a new Berlin Wall and it is called the euro."

The former City trader and UKIP leader proves to be an unlikely friend of the radical Marxist Greek prime minister.

He calls Weber’s “attack” on Tsipras disgusting and praises the Greek government for calling a referendum against the “bullies” in Brussels.

"If you have got the courage you should lead the Greek people out of the eurozone with your head held high.

Yes it will be tough for the first few months, but with a devalued currency and friends all over the world you will recover."

 

[Simster]

Maybe the solution might be to calculate what todays value of the debt Greece wrote off for Germany was and take that off what they owe to Germany ? Oh, silly me, the Germans are too arrogant to do that.

It's a simplistic solution, and to be fair to the Germans, they would probably consider that in exchange for economic reforms (and specifically tax reforms) in Greece.

I don't think it matters any more. Either the Germans get some of their money or they get none of it. The lesson to be learnt is not to fudge the books in the first place in an effort to get as many countries into the Eurozone as possible. The Euro currency project can only work with broadly similar economies, and to be honest, this seemed fairly obvious to most of us from the start.

 

[East Preston Gull]

The euro project is dead, long live the Greeks. The home of democracy will save us from this ridiculous vanity project. Keep strong and tell the Germans where to stick their money.

 

[yxee]

The euro project is dead, long live the Greeks. The home of democracy will save us from this ridiculous vanity project. Keep strong and tell the Germans where to stick their money.

I thought Germany was a democracy too?

 

[TomandJerry]

Ministerial talks on Greece's bailout proposals cancelled

A spokesman for Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister, who chairs the eurogroup, announced the conference call would not take place as planned.

But in an important step, Greece has filed a proposal for financial aid under the eurozone’s bailout programme, the European Stability Mechanism.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The euro project is dead, long live the Greeks. The home of democracy will save us from this ridiculous vanity project. Keep strong and tell the Germans where to stick their money.

The good news is that the cracks are beginning to show ....

 

[Soulman]

Go on Nige,

 

[sir albion]

"Nigel Farage tells Tsipras to quit the Euro"

"The European project has started to die.

The plan has failed. The whole of the Mediterranean finds itself in the wrong currency.

There is a new Berlin Wall and it is called the euro."

The former City trader and UKIP leader proves to be an unlikely friend of the radical Marxist Greek prime minister.

He calls Weber’s “attack” on Tsipras disgusting and praises the Greek government for calling a referendum against the “bullies” in Brussels.

"If you have got the courage you should lead the Greek people out of the eurozone with your head held high.

Yes it will be tough for the first few months, but with a devalued currency and friends all over the world you will recover."

Brilliant speech by farage

 

[Hampster Gull]

Brilliant speech by farage

Whats brilliant about that speech?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Whats brilliant about that speech?

It told a few home truths about how the EU is run.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Whats brilliant about that speech?

you're more of a din than i thought
regards
DR

 

[Hampster Gull]

you more of a din than i thought
regards
DR

Strangely that feels ok coming from you

If the speech was the cut and paste above in was non descript and uninspiring. He can do better

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I saw a stat today that said Greece has a population of 11m and a civil service of 800 000. Anyone know if this is correct?

 

[TomandJerry]

Greece’s energy minister, the influential left-wing Panagiotis Lafazanis, has said today that he expects a deal soon - but won’t accept a new bailout programme with tough austerity.

A MoU, or Memorandum of Understanding, is a list of measure*Greecemust take in return for aid. And any third bailout would certainly include one.

Lafazanis represents the radical far-left wing of the Syriza coalition, an important bloc of Tsipras’s government. Analysts have speculated that the Left Platform could potentially break away, rather than sign up to a new austerity package.