GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[NMH]

Money and perceived excesses are not the keys to happiness or harmony, and suggesting that bad people having stuff goes against rightful plans for good, is just wrong.

I believe that without purpose, without creation, there would not be species or atomic structures. Everything could meld together into a mass of and be perfectly everything, and nothing.
But that's not how it is, and we know it.
And because we know that, we are aware that we exist - surrounded by everything else that exists.

I am, therefore there is.

Whether this should be extended to branches of speculation, where a virgin gives birth to a chap who can revive dead people, defy gravity and weather conditions, and death itself, is up to you.
Whether it extends to blokes who can make seas part, walk across their path and then have them close again is up to you.
Whether it extends to entities with several arms, or figurines you can rub for luck, or chants that can bring you what you want - is all up to you.

And good luck with that.

 

[HovaGirl]

Lets go with a different example then to make the point, I have faith that there is a giant invisible yellow jelly man standing behind you, what do you think of my faith in this?

Religion depends on faith. A belief in God does not. If you have faith there is a giant invisible yellow jelly man standing behind me, then that is what you believe. I cannot change your belief or your faith. That is up to you.

The point about God, is to try to see God as completely separate from religion, which is man-made. There are certainly things which go on for which science has no explanation therefore, there is another side to our existence than the merely physical. The physical world is what science disects and examines. No one can examine the metaphysical world, because we can't hear it or see it, we can only sense it is there.

 

[seagullmouse]

It has no historical ties to creation or is it a world wide phenomenon.

It has a history and is at least known throughout most western countries. I believe in the tooth fairy, I just have a faith.

 

[HovaGirl]

magic is my word of choice, it has a patronising slant to it but its kind of besides the point. When you were a kid and you saw Paul Daniels do a trick, you called it magic because you didn't understand something.

I was already an adult when the excellent Paul Daniels was performing his illusions. I never called it magic, myself. He, and other "magicians" and "illusionists" have the ability to make you see what they want you to see. Rather like religious leaders do.

 

[HovaGirl]

hovagirl: has Ty passed on a metaphysical/magic nonsense baton to you?

(I am only playing here)

No, we've both been saying much the same thing all along.

 

[seagullmouse]

Religion depends on faith. A belief in God does not. If you have faith there is a giant invisible yellow jelly man standing behind me, then that is what you believe. I cannot change your belief or your faith. That is up to you.

The point about God, is to try to see God as completely separate from religion, which is man-made. There are certainly things which go on for which science has no explanation therefore, there is another side to our existence than the merely physical. The physical world is what science disects and examines. No one can examine the metaphysical world, because we can't hear it or see it, we can only sense it is there.

Would you say that I was wise to continue my belief in the giant invisible yellow jelly man or would you think me a little daft and try and show this to you through logic (hence the very thread we are on)?

How do you sense this metaphysical world? our senses are controlled by organs in the body which are physical, how are you achieving this? And is this this something only humans get to enjoy?

 

[seagullmouse]

No, we've both been saying much the same thing all along.

I thought Ty had gone but he's back so thats ok

 

[Mellotron]

Anyone who chose either of the FACT options is a dimwit. If it was fact either way these debates wouldn't continue til the end of time, as they always do. A GOD of any sort cannot be proved nor disproved.

 

[NMH]

By that logic you would have called gravity/light/the sun/black holes etc 'god' until we worked out what they were? does this seem like a silly thing to do?
Is dark matter your current god because we don't understand it yet?

Room for this god is getting smaller and smaller as we learn more, why would you be so keen to invent a god into that space?

I find that strange - why does working stuff out preclude the existence of a creator?
If a computer can work out massive codes of structure and explain all things, that doesn't preclude a creator.

I challenge a computer to kill a fly, then make another one! It'll be a looong wait!!

Not one person or thing can create life, not so much as a single cell.

 

[seagullmouse]

I find that strange - why does working stuff out preclude the existence of a creator?
If a computer can work out massive codes of structure and explain all things, that doesn't preclude a creator.

I challenge a computer to kill a fly, then make another one! It'll be a looong wait!!

my point is that the god described by others on here, is a 'god of the gaps' and the gaps are getting less and less as we learn more. There will always be things we don't understand as science is a process of improving hypotheses. But why praise the bit we don't know.

there could well be a creator but there is no evidence for it so why believe it

 

[HovaGirl]

By that logic you would have called gravity/light/the sun/black holes etc 'god' until we worked out what they were? does this seem like a silly thing to do?
Is dark matter your current god because we don't understand it yet?

Room for this god is getting smaller and smaller as we learn more, why would you be so keen to invent a god into that space?

You are getting closer and closer. I'm not at all a biblical person. Never read it. But consider that the Bible says God is everywhere. God is all the atoms, all the electrical charges, all the chemical reactions, every single physical thing. And God is every single thing that isn't physical, like our sense of smell, of taste, of touch, or sight, or hearing, like our consciences, like our emotions, like our sense that something is wrong with our child, like that feeling of deja vu, like being in love, like that feeling we get when someone puts our backs up and we don't know why. God is Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Elves, the Marshmallow planet. God is all of our ideas, good and bad, because God is all of us and all of everything, not a separate physical thing at all.

 

[Bold Seagull]

And there you have it except God is not a "thing", but is something beyond science.

God is a singular diety, and therefore not a 'something' but an incorporeal being.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

There was a time when we didn't know how the hummingbird flew (nor indeed the bumble bee for that matter) because incorrect assumptions of how they try to fly were put against the laws of physics. So scientists being scientists, they disected the problem - either our understanding of the laws of physics were flawed, OR the hummingbird doesn't fly in the conventional bird-like way.

Sure enough, when the technology became available, we could slow down motion sufficiently to see that the hummingbird flies using a different method:
How Does a Hummingbird Fly? | eHow.com

So what is the point of me pulling you up for this? Ah yes, you said "Remove convential logic and anything is possible". This sounds like nonsense to me. Conventional logic was not removed in the case of understanding the hummingbird, it was just that technology moved on allowing us to see how it flies in slow motion.

Conventional logic on how birds fly is removed when looking at the mechanics of how the hummingbird flies.

To appreciate how it flys you cannot view it from the same perspective as you would with other birds. Thus it does defy the logic of how 99.9% of birds fly. What it does do though is create a new logic which can be applied to the hummingbird.

Which goes back to the point being made. If all we ever applied to situations was what was considered the conventional logic of the time little progress would have been made.

What we percieve as logical here may not apply to other planets in other systems.

If I say to you, 2+2=5 and you say no it isn't, it doesn't mean I can get away with "remove conventional logic and 2+2=5, so there".

If you were able to convince enough people that 2+2=5 then I very well could be.

All you'd have done is created a new numerical system.

 

[Mr Burns]

We?
There's a great deal of people who seem to suggest its not even a miniscule possibility.
Which would then counter your views as well

Not at all. It's a FACT that you cannot prove something which does not exist, doesn't exist. As I've said, give or take a few zeros I think the chances of there being a god is 1,00000000000000000000000000-1 Some would argue that is zero. So to say that counters my views, is as as everything else you are saying.

 

[seagullmouse]

Religious: I praise thee oh gravity god, you metaphysically/magically make thee objects fall to earth.

Newton: Here is my law of universal gravitation

Religious: Ok we believe that now, nice one Isaac, we will use your theories to bring great technologies to humanity, you science guys are great. But what's that over there, that dark matter stuff, I don't get it.

Religious: I praise thee oh dark matter god, you metaphysically/magically make strange gravitational effects in the universe

Repeat ad infinitum

 

[seagullmouse]

You are getting closer and closer. I'm not at all a biblical person. Never read it. But consider that the Bible says God is everywhere. God is all the atoms, all the electrical charges, all the chemical reactions, every single physical thing. And God is every single thing that isn't physical, like our sense of smell, of taste, of touch, or sight, or hearing, like our consciences, like our emotions, like our sense that something is wrong with our child, like that feeling of deja vu, like being in love, like that feeling we get when someone puts our backs up and we don't know why. God is Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Elves, the Marshmallow planet. God is all of our ideas, good and bad, because God is all of us and all of everything, not a separate physical thing at all.

Sounds like you just love the world and call it 'god', awesome! I like the world too, its amazing but I don't call it god, its just the universe!

 

[Mr Burns]

You are getting closer and closer. I'm not at all a biblical person. Never read it. But consider that the Bible says God is everywhere. God is all the atoms, all the electrical charges, all the chemical reactions, every single physical thing. And God is every single thing that isn't physical, like our sense of smell, of taste, of touch, or sight, or hearing, like our consciences, like our emotions, like our sense that something is wrong with our child, like that feeling of deja vu, like being in love, like that feeling we get when someone puts our backs up and we don't know why. God is Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Elves, the Marshmallow planet. God is all of our ideas, good and bad, because God is all of us and all of everything, not a separate physical thing at all.

Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckooo

 

[HovaGirl]

Would you say that I was wise to continue my belief in the giant invisible yellow jelly man or would you think me a little daft and try and show this to you through logic (hence the very thread we are on)?

How do you sense this metaphysical world? our senses are controlled by organs in the body which are physical, how are you achieving this? And is this this something only humans get to enjoy?

I don't think it is. Pets seem to have instincts and affections for their human families which defy all logic. Think of the soldier's dog who would not leave his master's coffin. It is well-known that young children are capable of uncanny gifts which they lose by the time they leave primary school. Some have "imaginary" friends, which sometimes turn out not to be so imaginary.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

It has a history and is at least known throughout most western countries. I believe in the tooth fairy, I just have a faith.

Western societies isn't the world.

An aboriginal tribe could walk out of a forest never having had contact with any other outside influences and without a doubt their cultural and belief systems would share common paralels with other belief systems around the planet.

That's nothing to do with faith or religion, its about recognizing that while these cultures are different in many ways their belief systems are often quite similar despite never having had contact with each other.

 

[Gangsta]

Surely its all just some big computer game ( that probably does have a God in it ), buts cruel and sadistic to entertain those playing it, hence things like Tsunamis, West Street and Crystal Palace.