George Bush - UK Next Week

[Zeitgeist]

I'm a new guy introduced to your forum by one of your posters.
I thought a long time before I threw my hat in the ring on this issue. I looked at from a Presidential view. How best to serve the USA, defense wise.
The USA is the scapegoat for all the problems in the Middle-East. 99% of it comes from our support of Isreal. A small percentage of fanatics are the one causing the bulk of the trouble. They actually believe the anti-American rhetoric.
Sodomy Isane was a "tinhorn dictator." Overthrowing him is a humanitarian gesture. Much the same as any dictator in the past has been overthrown. Not a big issue. There were other issues that supported the war to oust him.
He was to relinquish all WMDs after the Gulf in 1991. A man of his character should not be in control of anything like WMDs.
The UN sent in weapons inspectors to oversee this project. 'Inspector' is probably a bad choice of word here but for lack of a better word it, will have to do. Their job was to oversee the elimination process not play hide and seek with WMDs. The Iraqs were to eliminate and destroy WMDs and WMD producing material and equipment. The inspectors were to supervise this process. Instead, it turned into a game of hide and seek. Frustrated with the whole affair, the inspector left. Clinton, being to busy chasing Bimbos around the White House, couldn't devote any time to this matter.
To believe someone like Sodomy Insane when he says he no longer has WMDs is stupid.
Terrorist camps were starting to form in Iraq and these people should not have WMDs. There is a great concern in this country that terrorist may have radioactive material to make a dirty bomb. We are not willing to wait for the next 9/11 to do something about it
President Bush and Prime Minister Blair and the rest of the coalition has the weight of every terrorist in the world pressing against them to fail.
They have my support to succeed.

Welcome to NSC. Do you believe all you hear on FOX news? A game of hide and seek with WMD?....Well, either the Iraq'is were very good at it, or the US military have seconded Stevie Wonder to co-ordinate the search!

 

[Bry Nylon]

You become that which you dispise

You are the real Al Gore, and I claim my $5

 

[Bare]

Thank you

You guys forget PanAm 103 so easily. Kadafi didn't.
Zeitgeist, why do you think the inspectors left in protest? Speak up.
And by the way, if Al said it, he got it from me.

 

[berkshire seagull]

No doubt blair has asked him here for advice on how to turn our country into a little america.

Just hope blair fu-cks off back to america with him

 

[Bry Nylon]

5000 police & 700 Secret Service gimps. If that doesn't tell the twat he's not exactly welcome, what will?

 

[Beach Hut]

I am glad this stimulated some debate although not sure how Waco became involved in this.

I stand by what I first posted - not welcome, premier to$$er !

 

[NMH]

To believe someone like Sodomy Insane when he says he no longer has WMDs is stupid.
Terrorist camps were starting to form in Iraq and these people should not have WMDs. There is a great concern in this country that terrorist may have radioactive material to make a dirty bomb. We are not willing to wait for the next 9/11 to do something about it

Yes yes, blah blah blah Weapons of Mass Destruction blah blah more blah. I get your point just like I heard that point so many times BEFORE WE FOUND OUT THAT THERE WERE NO 'WMD'S FOR BUDDHA'S SAKE !
Did you not hear about it? They didn't find anything more than a few old un-armed missiles . Our side has taken loads of artilliary over there and found bugger all . No uranium, no missiles. IF they had even found a SPECK of evidence for ONE MEASLY WEAPON it would have been sung from every rooftop starting with the White House, and "I told you so" woulda been the mantra.
Now, if we look at Palestine (behind the compound wire) we might find evidence of clandestine products cobbled together for the purpose of strapping to some misguided missile who feels VERY OPPRESSED for some odd reason YOU won't be able to put your finger on, but they feel strongly enough about to blow themselves to vapor for. Weird eh? Naughty Palestinians being bad just to upset Israel ? I don't believe so.

Didn't the deceased President Begin, as a 'freedom fighter' string up British officers on trees (aka terrorism) for the army to see? This after we conquored Hitler and freed the Jews from Nazi genocide? Did the Jews come ashore in ships, that we were trying to prevent landing, and then dispossess the Palestinians from their own houses that their own forefathers built? Oh but it's history, and Israel made something out of a barren land, and it used to be Israel at one ancient time so it's ok. So it's ok if Maoris eject the 'new' Zealanders, Indians eject the Americans, Aborigines eject Aussies.
No, we have to deal with today, and not look at history - things aren't about to revert to anything they used to be, and the Arabs should realise that too if there's going to be any peace on the horizon. There wasn't much peace in any part of history, after all!

Why does the US appear to take the side of Israel - are the US righteous and God-fearing looking after the correct people against the evil masses of Satan ? I'm just putting it on the table here, not taking a stand for or against - can you handle that, escape from possible myopia and belief in one-sided propaganda ?
I hope so, because my opinion is that it is the whole reason that no ground is being made into peace. The ONLY way to get there is by a fair overview and not 'crusading' against anyone who stands against Israel - which is how the Arabs in the (similarly myopic, but let's not imagine anyone is 'golden' here, no "chosen people" argument will make one side right) majority see it. We are not all right while they are all wrong - let's get that straightened out.

No matter how long or stringently the 'Western World' support one side over the other, we are pouring money over into the Arab coffers and have to do business with them. It makes for an odd bedfellow arrangement in Saudi, to start with. Kuwait weren't enamoured with the US ....before Saddam cowed them into preference.


Do we want peace and harmony, or do we prefer to keep seeing zealot terrorists striking out occasionally? Can we handle 'the occasional aeroplane' getting blown up, a foreign embassy or two, until they get downright nasty and do a couple of big buildings in our country where we sat in comfort?
Then we are not getting anywhere with an 'us vs them' view of it.
Do they really hate us because we are FREE and a DEMOCRACY?
Why don't they hate Norway, Canada, Sweden ??

Manipulations. Power used to manoevre the checkerboard of politics to suit one side.......vs.....
Diplomatic relations. Concessions, made even at any financial cost.
Polar opposites, and the twain don't meet, friends, we can't have it both ways apparently.

The best chance for peace in the Mid-east was named Itzhak Rabin. A TRUE hero who stuck his neck out to give something, to make inroads. Murdered by his own!! That was a moment that changed the World, that shapes our own history, and that still brings men of the World to tears. The Palestinain President is the new hope..... well he's the best one in a while anyway.

 

[Bare]

No, Little America is in Wyoming not the UK.

 

[Bare]

Peace in the region will not come cheap or easy. We're talking what? 8K-10K years of death and destruction and we aim to mediate that in 1-2 years.
If one takes an overview of the Mid-East you'll find one democracy in the region and it happens to be a Religious State(Jew). If the Arab hate the Jew, I don't expect they'll endorse the style of government the Jew uses. But it's worth a try.
Setting all petty jealousies aside, peace in the region is a worthy cause and should be underwritten by all good men.

 

[alan partridge]

I would welcome Bush.

What are these protests really about? Leftist haters who didn't get there own way, well boo f***ing hoo. If you dont like it vote Blair out, THATS what democracy is about not a minority of rabble rousers.

We have a moral obligation to Iraq now, THATS what democracy is about. Spreading it and doing in the tyrants before they get a chance to do in democracies.

Iran will be next in 1 or 2 years.

LOL you sound exactly like Tony Blair now Looney!

And your assertion that protesters are just a bunch of rabble rousers comes straight out of the Rightist Hater/Fox news text book.

A very very large number of the British people are/were against this war. Not smelly hippy tax dodgers. Ordinary British people. Protest is and has been the only way to voice that opinion as Tony Blair hasn't given a stuff about it. You constantly accuse the 'left' of name calling, which you counter by....name calling! Tarring people and views with the 'loony left' brush. You're Ricahrd Littlejohn aren't you

The right's unconcern about the the lack of WMDs issue is a joke. This is half of the reason men and women were sent to fight and possibly die there. Half the reason 1000s of Iraqi have died....but no, we should move on, live in the 'real' world and undertake our 'moral obligation' to Iraq.

Looney, what is it about the left that gets your goat so much? did this man break up your family...

 

[alan partridge]

although, to be fair, i'm just bitter cos this arse ran off with my wife

 

[SM BHAFC]

Bare good opening post welcome to NSC.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Zeitgeist, why do you think the inspectors left in protest? Speak up.

Oh dear... *sigh*........Depends who you want to believe...Hans Blix or the American right wing media??..They left Iraq as they probably didn't fancy being on the wrong end of one of Uncle Sams Tomahawks with a dodgy chip! Then again, going on past experence, it's a miracle one wasn't programmed to land on Israel in error! " Never mind chaps, it was friendly fire"! "No worries Bud"!

Terrorist camps forming in Iraq?....Really?....Thats a new slant. No doubt the folk who have all the evidence of WMD, will furnish us with the whereabouts of these?

I notice you come from California Bare. Hollywood by any chance? They re-write a lot of history there.

 

[Albion Dan]

Just out of interest Bare who sent you to this forum?? I would guess his username begis with an "L"?

 

[tedebear]

We have a moral obligation to Iraq now, THATS what democracy is about. Spreading it and doing in the tyrants before they get a chance to do in democracies.

Pardon?? - I have a moral obligation to nothing here ... The decision was made to sort out someone else country between elections (very clever) and the general populus was never consulted.

I still can't fathom why we went into this - WMD?? where - under that rock over there - oh crap Sadam must have moved it, but it must be there somewhere - so we'll go to war to save these poor tortured people.... grand notions to say the least and a touch of human kindness - but at what cost??

I couldn't give a toss if Bush wants to come to London for high tea with Blair - I won't be there to welcome him - until the puppet realizes he isn't the saviour of the world, and that war will not keep him in the White House...

 

[Eastleigh Seagull]

- george bush and his family have had business dealings with the bin ladin (including osama)family for years
- on the day of 9/11, 24 members of the bin ladin family were allowed to fly around america in a private jet provided by the CIA, with bush's blessing
- the saudi royal family inflict far worse pain and suffering on their people than the taliban or saddam hussein ever did, but of course, they are close business allies with george so no "liberation" for the people of saudi arabia
- 11 of the 15 of the 9/11 terrorists were saudi, so of course, it makes absolute sense to station all your troops in saudi arabia and bomb the f*** out of innocent people while you look for one man(coincidently on a dialisis machine) who is in fact saudi himself.

Just been reading back through this section and realise that it is this sort of conspiracy theory shit purveyed by the Mirror and the rest of the anti-American media that could have serious repurcussions for UK-US relations.

Point 1 is that the bin laden family (which in itself is huge) are the biggest construction business in Saudi Arabia - they have disowned Osama, which is a major event in the Islamic culture. Of course America and Bush have had dealings with them so have people in the UK - his sister tried to be a pop singer in the UK.

Point 2 - yes the Saudi Royal Fmaily are hardly angels but no-one can claim that they are worse than either the Taliban or especially Saddam - both the latter two were big into large public executions, and in addition you have Saddam and his chemical attacks and ritual slaughter of hundreds of thousands of his own people. None of them are big on human rights and the like but there are degrees and both Afghanistan and Iraq far outstrip the Saudi transgressions.

Point 3 - yes the terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, and your point is? Does that also mean we should have bombed the Republic of Ireland everytime an IRA attack occurred here - no. The attack on Afghanistan was because they were sheltering international terrorists and was sanctioned by the UN and the broadest international coalition possible.

By the way I have just been invited to a speech by Bush next week (location undisclosed for all you budding protestors) and while I may not agree with what he says I think it is a good thing he is coming over here.

 

[looney]

Ap. Whats your problem? I just spelt out the difference between democracy and freedom to protest, I oppose neither. I was just spelling out the firstly protests arn't representative the ballot box is.

The war is over as a sence the UK/US now occupy it so why the protests? Do you want them out so another Afghanistan can emerge, Taliban, al-quida et al.

"which you counter by....name calling! "

Minority of Rabble rousers name calling? I think it fitted an accrute discription in light of what I had already posted, maybe jaundiced true but I'm not opposing freedom remember, I'm questioning there reasons and motives of the protesters thats all. After all its not going to be on the scale of the pre-war protests, its boiled down to the Hard core rabble rousers.

 

[Spiros]

The biggest problem I had (and still do) with attacking Iraq is that it was done without a proper mandate under international law. UK and US governments have always banged on about breaches of international law and UN Security Council resolutions by others but then conveniently overlooked the need to keep on the right side of the law themselves. If the US wants to police the rest of the world then it has to remember that proper police are there to enforce the law, they are not above it (although just like a lot of our own boys in blue the US think they are above the law).

 

[alan partridge]

What are these protests really about? Leftist haters who didn't get there own way, well boo f***ing hoo. If you dont like it vote Blair out, THATS what democracy is about not a minority of rabble rousers.

thats what you said and to me that sounded like you were lumping a huge amount of the british public together into one great big smelly protester chocolate cricket ball. sorry to be picky but you were talking in the past tense. and ofcourse the protests aren't going to be on the same level. before they were about trying to stop a war. this time round the war has happened and its about a presedential visit and the war people couldn't stop.
i say protest away, there'll be a minority of twats, just like us footie fans have to put up with our minority of twats, but i don't agree they'll only be hardcore rabble rousers. they'll be plenty of ordinary people showing there displeasure at bush being granted a full state visit. he isn't just popping over for a cup of tea. he's being honoured by a country in which millions of people mistrust, possibly despise him. timing is a bit iffy wouldn't you say?

 

[fatbadger]

You guys forget PanAm 103 so easily. Kadafi didn't.

You guys forget the shooting down of an Iranian airliner in July 1988 by the USS Vincennes. The Islamic world hasn't.