G20 Policeman who pushed Ian Tomlinson over - No Charge

[clapham_gull]

Look, I'm not going to defend the copper for the sake of it, but the facts have already been set out.

(1) It's nothing to do with the police whether someone gets prosecuted or not apart from the most minor and clear cut of cases, it's the CPS (with help from the IPCC, who conducted the investigation in this case)

(2) There is NOT enough evidence to charge with manslaughter because as I have already said, you have to demonstrate that there is a causal link between the act and the consequence, and in a fifty-something homeless alcoholic (I say that not to deride the bloke, but merely to suggest that such people don't tend to be in the best of health anyway), you are never, ever going to be able to prove that being pushed to the ground contributed to either a heart attack or internal bleeding, depending on which report you want to read. Such conditions are not uncommon in people with generally poor health.

(3) We all know there is sufficient evidence to charge with assault, but as the law stands, the suspect would have to have been charged within six months of the offence taking place. THAT is why he hasn't been charged. The IPCC and CPS will have to answer the questions as to why it took so long (although as the media have confirmed on many occasions, there were hundreds of individual pieces of footage and accounts of the day to sift through).

Argue the morality of it all you like, but those are the facts.

I think it's worth pointing out the original postmortem took place prior to there being any knowledge that he pushed over / hit ?

Some MPs have retrospectively been very critical that it took place so quickly, because the issues surrounding his death were obviously going to be complex.

So it's not a case of two pathologists arguing whether the manner of him falling over lead to his death or not. Quite simply, I think the first pathologist (the one currently suspended) wasn't even aware of it.

I may be wrong on this, but I read something yesterday that said as much.

 

[Acker79]

I think it's worth pointing out the original postmortem took place prior to there being any knowledge that he pushed over / hit ?

What does that say about any post mortem, and this one in particular?

If the push/hit was the cause, shouldn't the first post mortem have shown that a push/hit occurred?

If the first, without any other info, says natural causes, and then they are told "he was hit", now they do a post mortem, and then this time, knowing he was hit they say it could have/was the most likely cause isn't that a bit suspicious? As if they went into it looking to tie the death to the hit/push?

How can we trust any post mortem if they couldn't work out the guy was hit, or that knowing what people want to blame it on can lead to finding evidence you didn't see before?

 

[clapham_gull]

What does that say about any post mortem, and this one in particular?

If the push/hit was the cause, shouldn't the first post mortem have shown that a push/hit occurred?

If the first, without any other info, says natural causes, and then they are told "he was hit", now they do a post mortem, and then this time, knowing he was hit they say it could have/was the most likely cause isn't that a bit suspicious? As if they went into it looking to tie the death to the hit/push?

How can we trust any post mortem if they couldn't work out the guy was hit, or that knowing what people want to blame it on can lead to finding evidence you didn't see before?

You're not an expert on pathology and neither am I, but I'd imagine they like to have all the evidence at hand. Forget about him being hit or falling, the first one came up with a VERY different cause of death.

There seems to be a bit of controversy surrounding the first one anyway of which we will here more of.

 

[beorhthelm]

i would have thought the point of a post mortem was to determine the cause of death empirically and independently, without prejudice of other details around the death.

 

[clapham_gull]

i would have thought the point of a post mortem was to determine the cause of death empirically and independently, without prejudice of other details around the death.

Not sure how anything else is being suggested ?

The only thing we know at the moment is the first one came to a very different view from the other two (who agreed) and the first one is currently suspended.

What now needs to happen is for someone to look empirically and independently into the investigation itself wouldn't you agree ?

 

[Acker79]

Not sure how anything else is being suggested ?

The only thing we know at the moment is the first one came to a very different view from the other two (who agreed) and the first one is currently suspended.

What now needs to happen is for someone to look empirically and independently into the investigation itself wouldn't you agree ?

What else is being suggested is that knowing he was hit/pushed has changed the outcome of the post mortem, which, as I was trying to highlight, brings to question just how empirical/independent it is.

If a punch or hit caused death, it should show up in a post mortem. It only started showing up when post mortems were carried out by people asking "could the punch/push have caused death?"

That could be coincidence. It could be that the original pathologist was just not very thorough. It could be that, say a bruise that was noted could have been caused by attempts to resuscitate the guy, and so were ignored, and knowing the guy was punched/shoved provide an alternative explanation, but if that is the case, wouldn't it also cast doubt on the conclusion that it was the push/shove?


And again, the third post mortem, according to the article in the initial post, was not released, meaning any other reports about its contents must be rumour, hearsay, or supposition. If I'm wrong, I would be interested to see a link with details of the third post mortem.

 

[luppers]

Nobody seems to to mention the fact that he was also caught on camera at other locations prior to this as drunk as a lord, falling over and generally causing problems. Who knows if he got internal injuries from these incidents?