[Misc] F1 2021

[Hugo Rune]

Even Qatar, going into the race the talk was it would be rear-limited and thus favour RB, turned out to be front-limited and thus favoured Mercedes. Certainly going to be a very interesting final 2 races. I'm expecting Hamilton's engine advantage (a very fresh engine to stick back in having used the older engine for Qatar) will prove decisive, as RB will be forced to be conservative with their older engine in Verstappen's car.

Not only that, the Saudi circuit has some long straights that the Merc will just gobble up. In addition, RB’s low downforce rear wing is having reliability issues. Both Mercs should qualify ahead of Max but I suspect only one will.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Personal view is that if Merc had made the change to Russell last winter then Lewis would have won the Championship already.

Bottas performance on the first lap unforgivably bad and Lewis within his rights to publicly call him out on the radio

 

[227 BHA]

Agree, Bottas’ performances have been awful. I’m actually surprised he has got teams wanting to take him on having seen his performances over the years in the very best car - Imagine how bad he’ll be in an average car?!
If Lewis can win his 8th title this year with little to no help from his team mate imagine how good he’ll be with a young hungry no 2?

 

[Icy Gull]

BBC Sport interview with Lewis on a number of issues. His comments on Max are interesting. Comes across very well imo, but then I would say that wouldn’t I?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59369648

 

[Bold Seagull]

BBC Sport interview with Lewis on a number of issues. His comments on Max are interesting. Comes across very well imo, but then I would say that wouldn’t I?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59369648

I mentioned it on the other thread that if Max had backed out at Silverstone, which he could have done as Lewis did in Brazil, and he finished the British Grand Prix on the podium, I think the season shakes out a lot differently and he'd probably be world champion already.

The stewards ruling in Brazil is one thing, various drivers thereafter backing Lewis and effectively saying this type of racing just isn't on, if someone has the corner on my outside, are we saying I can just out break myself and it's up to the other driver to avoid me, is another. No wonder the paddock is frustrated, I think they've had enough of observing driving etiquette themelves only to see a title contender ignoring it.

It's probably why some posters on this thread were particularly irked by Brazil despite the stewards not acting – it's not the first time, the only reason we've only had 2 collisions between Max and Lewis is that Lewis has avoided about 4 or 5 attempts by Max to run him off the road. We don't want to see races and championships decided in the way Schumacher, Prost or Senna decided the outcomes through rash often intentional moves to take their rival out. If we want to see more overtaking, then the regulators have to come down hard when drivers unfairly try to prevent it.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I mentioned it on the other thread that if Max had backed out at Silverstone, which he could have done as Lewis did in Brazil, and he finished the British Grand Prix on the podium, I think the season shakes out a lot differently and he'd probably be world champion already.

The stewards ruling in Brazil is one thing, various drivers thereafter backing Lewis and effectively saying this type of racing just isn't on, if someone has the corner on my outside, are we saying I can just out break myself and it's up to the other driver to avoid me, is another. No wonder the paddock is frustrated, I think they've had enough of observing driving etiquette themelves only to see a title contender ignoring it.

It's probably why some posters on this thread were particularly irked by Brazil despite the stewards not acting – it's not the first time, the only reason we've only had 2 collisions between Max and Lewis is that Lewis has avoided about 4 or 5 attempts by Max to run him off the road. We don't want to see races and championships decided in the way Schumacher, Prost or Senna decided the outcomes through rash often intentional moves to take their rival out. If we want to see more overtaking, then the regulators have to come down hard when drivers unfairly try to prevent it.

If Lewis wins in Saudi and take the lead in the championship, and we get into the same situation in Abu Dhabi I wonder if Max will be able to resist trying it again? I guess Lewis would be less inclined to yield in that scenario!

 

[A1X]

It's probably why some posters on this thread were particularly irked by Brazil despite the stewards not acting – it's not the first time, the only reason we've only had 2 collisions between Max and Lewis is that Lewis has avoided about 4 or 5 attempts by Max to run him off the road. We don't want to see races and championships decided in the way Schumacher, Prost or Senna decided the outcomes through rash often intentional moves to take their rival out. If we want to see more overtaking, then the regulators have to come down hard when drivers unfairly try to prevent it.

I think it bears comparison to Monza. It was deemed Verstappen was at fault but I think a lot of people put it down to hard racing which just went a bit too far, it was an unfortunate outcome but ultimately the sort of thing that can happen in that scenario, and could easily have happened with a coming together of (e.g.) Giovanazzi and Latifi in different circumstances. I certainly don't think there was a serious argument (certainly once the initial heat had died down) that Verstappen had intentionally tried to wipe Hamilton out, he went for a gap which was never there and ended up in a heap in the gravel as a result. Interlagos was a different matter entirely and I think the paddock knew it. I haven't heard a single voice outside the Red Bull ecosystem which thinks what he did was right, or even acceptable, other than the stewards.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think it bears comparison to Monza. It was deemed Verstappen was at fault but I think a lot of people put it down to hard racing which just went a bit too far, it was an unfortunate outcome but ultimately the sort of thing that can happen in that scenario, and could easily have happened with a coming together of (e.g.) Giovanazzi and Latifi in different circumstances. I certainly don't think there was a serious argument (certainly once the initial heat had died down) that Verstappen had intentionally tried to wipe Hamilton out, he went for a gap which was never there and ended up in a heap in the gravel as a result. Interlagos was a different matter entirely and I think the paddock knew it. I haven't heard a single voice outside the Red Bull ecosystem which thinks what he did was right, or even acceptable, other than the stewards.

I think it’s a mindset that says I’m not moving or avoiding for anyone, if I make a move you best give me room or we will collide. I think that is a fair assessment of how Verstappen approaches racing, same with what he did to LeClerc in Austria a year or so back. It’s uncompromising when actually motor racing has to have compromise in order not to have collisions - you have to yield, it’s part of the sport.

He might not ‘intentionally’ look for a collision, but I think he puts himself in a position that unless the other driver takes evasive action, it will happen. Compared to Monza and Brazil, I think all Hamilton did was put himself in the position of ‘I’m here you need to avoid me’ at Silverstone - because he had to, 32pts behind. Verstappen seems to do it as a natural part of his racing.

 

[zefarelly]

If Lewis wins in Saudi and take the lead in the championship, and we get into the same situation in Abu Dhabi I wonder if Max will be able to resist trying it again? I guess Lewis would be less inclined to yield in that scenario!

I honestly think Lewis would want to win on the track, not the breakers yard. I do agree though, the mindset would be weighted.

The danger always is a Damon Hill scenario whereby only one breaks down and its the wrong one!

 

[Icy Gull]

I mentioned it on the other thread that if Max had backed out at Silverstone, which he could have done as Lewis did in Brazil, and he finished the British Grand Prix on the podium, I think the season shakes out a lot differently and he'd probably be world champion already.

The stewards ruling in Brazil is one thing, various drivers thereafter backing Lewis and effectively saying this type of racing just isn't on, if someone has the corner on my outside, are we saying I can just out break myself and it's up to the other driver to avoid me, is another. No wonder the paddock is frustrated, I think they've had enough of observing driving etiquette themelves only to see a title contender ignoring it.

It's probably why some posters on this thread were particularly irked by Brazil despite the stewards not acting – it's not the first time, the only reason we've only had 2 collisions between Max and Lewis is that Lewis has avoided about 4 or 5 attempts by Max to run him off the road. We don't want to see races and championships decided in the way Schumacher, Prost or Senna decided the outcomes through rash often intentional moves to take their rival out. If we want to see more overtaking, then the regulators have to come down hard when drivers unfairly try to prevent it.

Everyone knows that Max never backs off, it will quite possibly cost him the Championship and hand it to Lewis who has been very savvy. As Lewis effectively said in the interview he had nothing to lose at Silverstone, he was over 30 points behind when he refused to back off.

Christian Horner has shown himself up to be even more of a cock than I already think he is by not sitting Max down and ORDERING him to rein in his aggression now. But no, the dick is continuing to back him and helping him to throw away what should be a tied up Championship by blaming anyone but Max, even the FIA

I am very surprised that Dietrich hasn’t stepped in and told Horner to concentrate on what he is paid to do…deliver a World Championship for driver and constructor and that includes mentoring his Mad Max

 

[CP 0 3 BHA]

If Lewis wins in Saudi Arabia and Max is second it may well leave Max a point of two ahead going into the final race. If that happens I doubt Max will let Lewis make it past the first corner.

 

[A1X]

I think it’s a mindset that says I’m not moving or avoiding for anyone, if I make a move you best give me room or we will collide. I think that is a fair assessment of how Verstappen approaches racing, same with what he did to LeClerc in Austria a year or so back. It’s uncompromising when actually motor racing has to have compromise in order not to have collisions - you have to yield, it’s part of the sport.

He might not ‘intentionally’ look for a collision, but I think he puts himself in a position that unless the other driver takes evasive action, it will happen. Compared to Monza and Brazil, I think all Hamilton did was put himself in the position of ‘I’m here you need to avoid me’ at Silverstone - because he had to, 32pts behind. Verstappen seems to do it as a natural part of his racing.

You'd have hoped that after a big shunt (like it was for him at Silverstone) he might rein it in a bit purely from a self-preservation POV, but it seems not.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Everyone knows that Max never backs off, it will quite possibly cost him the Championship and hand it to Lewis who has been very savvy. As Lewis effectively said in the interview he had nothing to lose at Silverstone, he was over 30 points behind when he refused to back off.

Christian Horner has shown himself up to be even more of a cock than I already think he is by not sitting Max down and ORDERING him to rein in his aggression now. But no, the dick is continuing to back him and helping him to throw away what should be a tied up Championship by blaming anyone but Max, even the FIA

I am very surprised that Dietrich hasn’t stepped in and told Horner to concentrate on what he is paid to do…deliver a World Championship for driver and constructor and that includes mentoring his Mad Max

I'm not entirely sure whether Horner is the one who has to rein Dietrich in and is actually the only stable influence in the team!

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I'm not entirely sure whether Horner is the one who has to rein Dietrich in and is actually the only stable influence in the team!

You be forgiven for wondering if the entire RB team are constantly overdosed on the product they advertise, the way they behave.

 

[zefarelly]

You be forgiven for wondering if the entire RB team are constantly overdosed on the product they advertise, the way they behave.

They probably have a specxial blend. The only sane one there is Adrian Newey.

 

[Bold Seagull]

They probably have a specxial blend. The only same one there is Adrian Newey.

I sometimes catch a glimpse of Newey and he looks like this...

 

[zefarelly]

If Lewis wins in Saudi Arabia and Max is second it may well leave Max a point of two ahead going into the final race. If that happens I doubt Max will let Lewis make it past the first corner.

That is when the FIA step in with an ancient ( ink still wet) law to dock exactly the same amount of points as the lead is and the title gets shared.

or dock them 150 points each and give it to Bottas

 

[Audax]

I mentioned it on the other thread that if Max had backed out at Silverstone, which he could have done as Lewis did in Brazil, and he finished the British Grand Prix on the podium, I think the season shakes out a lot differently and he'd probably be world champion already.

I've seen it said on this forum (can't remember if it was you?) that Verstappen should have left more room at Silverstone. Thing is, he *did* leave plenty of room. The problem with that incident is that Hamilton missed the apex by a long way. Difficulty in using it as a precedent for the Brazil incident is that the profile of the corners is different, as was the dynamics of the two cars at corner entry.

Silverstone: Max had the ideal entry line, Max knew it is possible to run around the outside of that corner (more than possible - it's common), and Max had more entry speed as they transitioned out of braking and into the corner proper. The effect there is that Max on the outside was 100% committed, and because Hamilton was slower at the corner entry phase he didn't have a direct visual on exactly where Hamilton was.

Brazil: Hamilton had the ideal entry line, but Hamilton also knows that running around the outside of that corner relies absolutely on being ahead of the car on the inside as you transition to corner entry. By the time they got to that point, Hamilton had sight of Max barreling into the corner with more entry speed, so Hamilton had an early warning that he needed to open the steering and run it wide. He was never committed to the corner, and if he had committed the contact would have been fully side-to-side as opposed to the front-to-rear tap that he gave Max.



Edit: don't get me wrong, Max should have had a penalty from Brazil. Once we saw the onboards and telemetry traces, IMO he took the line he did deliberately and explicitly to block Hamilton. It was clumsy and the stewards got it wrong, and Hamilton did well to avoid getting clobbered. I'm just pointing out that there are key differences in the Silverstone incident that means you're comparing apples and oranges, even if superficially they look similar.

 

[A1X]

That is when the FIA step in with an ancient ( ink still wet) law to dock exactly the same amount of points as the lead is and the title gets shared.

or dock them 150 points each and give it to Bottas

Give it to the winner of the overtake league, there's only about 5 in it IIRC between Kimi, Alonso and Vettel. Would make for an incredible final race if they had to try and overtake as many people as possible during the afternoon.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I've seen it said on this forum (can't remember if it was you?) that Verstappen should have left more room at Silverstone. Thing is, he *did* leave plenty of room. The problem with that incident is that Hamilton missed the apex by a long way. Difficulty in using it as a precedent for the Brazil incident is that the profile of the corners is different, as was the dynamics of the two cars at corner entry.

Silverstone: Max had the ideal entry line, Max knew it is possible to run around the outside of that corner (more than possible - it's common), and Max had more entry speed as they transitioned out of braking and into the corner proper. The effect there is that Max on the outside was 100% committed, and because Hamilton was slower at the corner entry phase he didn't have a direct visual on exactly where Hamilton was.

Brazil: Hamilton had the ideal entry line, but Hamilton also knows that running around the outside of that corner relies absolutely on being ahead of the car on the inside as you transition to corner entry. By the time they got to that point, Hamilton had sight of Max barreling into the corner with more entry speed, so Hamilton had an early warning that he needed to open the steering and run it wide. He was never committed to the corner, and if he had committed the contact would have been fully side-to-side as opposed to the front-to-rear tap that he gave Max.



Edit: don't get me wrong, Max should have had a penalty from Brazil. Once we saw the onboards and telemetry traces, IMO he took the line he did deliberately and explicitly to block Hamilton. It was clumsy and the stewards got it wrong, and Hamilton did well to avoid getting clobbered. I'm just pointing out that there are key differences in the Silverstone incident that means you're comparing apples and oranges, even if superficially they look similar.

It was a discussion about risk and position of the title race, not a comparison of the relative merits of the moves or corners. Hamilton couldn't afford a DNF in Brazil or his title chances were over, so regardless of whatever else, he was going to do everything in his skillset and ability to avoid a collision whether he needed to or not, he knew he had to get a move done clean as a whistle.

At Silverstone, Max left enough room for a car inside of him, but not enough room for Hamilton who sent a hail mary up the inside - because his title position demanded he had to win that race. What I am saying or asking is whether at 32 pts ahead, did Max do everything in his skillset and ability to avoid Hamilton regardless of racing lines, who had the corner etc. He had a decision to make, yield and get bullied into letting Hamilton through, or contest the move retaining a fair line. I'm not saying he was wrong to contest it in the context of the Grand Prix, a win was at stake, but in the context of the title race as a whole, absolutely.