Dunk / Greer Mistakes

[sussex_guy2k2]

Yes, exactly. It's a COLLECTIVE opinion.

A collective opinion where people attribute their own subjective opinions to a number between 1-10, whereby no-one uses the same system to judge players or rate them along that numerical system. What it is however, is a great way for people to attribute their biases, as seen in the ratings for the Wolves game where Goldson was rated higher than Dunk overall despite Dunk being excellent and Goldson making the mistake that lost us the game.

As I said, logic isn't your forte.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The ratings are an average of a group of fans who have watched the games. They mean a lot more than an individual opinion such as yours.

It just does not support your argument so you are going to call them worthless.

It's just a few fans who can be bothered to rate players. I will give Bruno 2 for last night. #
Most of the attacks that have conceded goals have come down the right hand side. Bristol City for example, and Charlton.
Yes, Bruno has had some excellent games but he has also had some back defensive episodes allowing his man to get a cross in, and at QPR he didn't mark Austin.

 

[Withdean11]

It's not a stupid question. It's a logical one (although I know logic isn't your forte).

It's like asking you to name the striker we should sign. Neither you or I have the knowledge to know which players are available to sign. = Stupid question. But I've still given you an answer.

 

[Withdean11]

A collective opinion where people attribute their own subjective opinions to a number between 1-10, whereby no-one uses the same system to judge players or rate them along that numerical system. What it is however, is a great way for people to attribute their biases, as seen in the ratings for the Wolves game where Goldson was rated higher than Dunk overall despite Dunk being excellent and Goldson making the mistake that lost us the game.

As I said, logic isn't your forte.

Okay, yes, you are right. Nobody else's opinion matter as much as yours.

 

[NooBHA]

Since the appointments of ch and cc I've been worried that our attack coaching may be below strengh, given their combined careers, but our defensive coaching strength ought to be superb.

But I'm really worried how disorganised we look at the back on occasions. I see most of it live, backing off direct runners, poor judgment on jockey or slide in, doubling up on one man and leaving another free because failing to read movement etc. And I see the rest of it on Tv clips when I can't get to away games, and often our defending looks like the keystone cops, and that's backed up by the ribbing I get from friends who say "did you see that calamitous defending last night" etc. I mean, look at the last 12 goals we have conceded, it is utterly shambolic, and with the strength of defensive coaching we have it should be sorted in the classroom, quickly, but it keeps happening. Yes I know, changes of personnel due to injury bla bla bla, but think about all the time spent on the training ground and watching future opposition videos, there is hours and hours to prep and rehearse this. It's not as if the defenders have got other things to do like clean boots and sweep the car park.

I think there is only so much coaching can achieve. The manager earns his salary through player selection, tactics and man management.

It then also up to him to spot and bring in capable players. In recent weeks I think Chris has been too lenient on the players who have made the errors recently. I am one of his biggest fans on here but I think it is time for him to really step up and show what he is made of now.

Some players have not been performing to the standard they were before. I know we have lost some players through injury but the cutting edge isn't there now. Previously we went out and attacked teams early and got in front. That is not happening now and Chris needs to kick a few people up the backside.

Thgis is a problem time and it is up to the Manager to turn it round and i am sure he will. He probably looked at the previous defeats and thought, with so many being out then there were fine margins that we were just on the wrong side of. Contrary to that I think he would have looked at last nights match and thought. That wasn't fine margins, that was actually poor standard of play.

> I want to see a different attitude from the players in the next game because I don't think the body language of the players looked right last night. Consequently as much as I support Chris' all the way, I don't do so blindly.

I do now think he has a job to do in altering attitudes of some players and motivating a few of the others and I hope that starts with the next game.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It's like asking you to name the striker we should sign. Neither you or I have the knowledge to know which players are available to sign. = Stupid question. But I've still given you an answer.

Let's break this thread down for you.

Someone (Stoneham I believe) put up Greer and Dunk's mistakes as the beginning of this thread. There were flaws in that person's argument, which myself (and others) debated with him by offering evidence to suggest that he/she wasn't giving a good account of both players' mistakes so far this season. Nonetheless, the debate was a good one that was backed up by stats, logic and descriptions of the goals on both sides of the argument. During this time I've suggested that BOTH Dunk and Greer have made mistakes throughout this season which have cost us points. I've even suggested that a spell out of the team would do Dunk good as things clearly aren't going well for him at the moment, just as they weren't going particularly well for Greer prior to his injury - these things happen as defenders make mistakes.

Unfortunately, you then joined the debate to start your anti-Dunk propaganda and you've backed it up with no facts whatsoever. Now you're entitled to your opinion that you don't think Dunk is good enough for this club, as is the OP and anyone else who puts that position forward. Similarly, people that suggest that Greer should be allowed to leave are entitled to their opinion. Similarly, people like myself are also entitled to our opinions where we have a preference for one or the other, but actually think we'd be silly to replace either of them at this stage, particularly when there are other, bigger issues within the team.

But if you're going to have that opinion and come on here demanding that the club sell (arguably) one of its best players because said player is going through a poor run of form, then please back it up with something concrete I.e. Enough evidence of mistakes, or tactical analysis, or stats from some games that back your point up, otherwise your argument falls flat.

Which leads me on to the evidence you've put forward. You've quoted average ratings from these boards, which is perfectly fine, but anyone with a brain can see that a) the ratings system is flawed as there's no metric to actually rate people against, b) as a result of (a) the biases of the raters often shines through as seen in the averages from the Wolves game, and c) as Thunderbolt above pointed out, the pool of raters is actually tiny compared to the amount of people that went to the game. Basically, this piece of evidence isn't evidence at all.

Your other piece of evidence seems to be the slip which caused us to lose the game against Rotherham (you may have discussed other mistakes but I've not seen these posts from you). Now, as far as mistakes go, I and many others wouldn't put the Rotherham first goal down as a mistake - rather it was just one of those things that happens on a wet pitch in January where he's slipped and tried to adjust, and they've taken full advantage. Unfortunately for Dunk, he's being punished for everything at the moment (and probably does need to come out of the limelight for a bit). But even then, of his other mistakes, none of which you've really explained at any point, only really the Ipswich one (and I'm not the only to have made this point), the Burnley penalty (which many agree is the type of "penalty' where, if you're going to give that, you have to give 10 penalties every game) and the one at Hull have cost us points/FA Cup progression this season. Yes, the QPR sending off was reckless and unacceptable, but it was Greer and Bruno that made the defensive mistakes in that game. So really, in the grander scheme of things, you don't have a lot of evidence to put forward.

Now, seeing as you've come on here with your anti-Dunk propaganda and changed the thread from one that discusses the mistakes of BOTH defenders, to a thread that is "get Dunk out", I have a right to ask you what you think this would achieve, and what solutions you have for us losing (arguably) one of our best players. I've asked the question and you've subjectively put forward a name of a young kid. A kid who you've offered no statistical or objective proof for how he'd improve us as a replacement for Dunk. Yet, as we've seen with Goldson, young defenders make mistakes and the likelihood is it would take him time to adjust, especially considering he's yet to play at the same level as Dunk or our other CBs. So the long and the short of it is this - if you're going to baselessly suggest we get rid of him because you think there's a major problem, at least either have proof of there being a problem, or have proof/evidence of a potential solution. This really is simple debating technique and it reflects poorly on you that you can't see that.

So yes, Dunk is going through a hard time and no doubt a lot of supporters feel he's going through a tough run where things aren't going his way (just as Greer was pre-injury), and they'd suggest he needs some time out of the team. but selling him at this stage is going to deprive us of (arguably) one of our best defenders. This seems nonsensical when your back ups are a young kid with little experience of this level, our club captain who is comfortably in his 30s and who has suffered his own mistakes his year, and a 29/30 (I've forgotten his precise age) year old German guy in his first year in the country, who himself has had injury issues this year.

Baring all of that in mind, I look forward to you making a compelling case as to why we should sell Dunk, and a compelling case for who you think we should replace him with (look back on page 10 - you said you thought we could find better alternatives elsewhere, so the fact that you're not a scout really shouldn't come into it if you're going to make such claims) that would improve both our first team and our squad, both now and in the future.

P.s. Try and offer some balance to your argument that suggests you've looked at both sides of the argument. It'll make you seem more capable of debate than you're currently appearing.

P.p.s. We can go back to the original thread topic if you'd prefer.