Donald Trump

[symyjym]

And this is the heart of the problem. People keep commenting saying "Muslims say this," or "Muslims say that; "Islam is this," or "Islam is that". There are millions of Muslims and they are all different!
In America, doctors have been murdered by anti-abortionsts, most of those murderers would identify as Christians and say that they felt that what they were doing was right because of their Christian beliefs - do we say "Christians murder doctors"? In Northern Ireland there was for many years (and arguably still is) a conflict under-pinned by Christian sectarianism - do we say "Christians kill policemen and bomb innocent people"?
This is why the rhetoric of people like Donald Trump is so poisonous, it lumps all Muslims together and says, "these people are the enemy," when overwhelmingly they are the victims.

Religion is tiresome to be honest. It can be used to justify anything.

I have always questioned Christianity and God, and now I have to deal with Islam and make allowances for it.

As an atheist I will never understand the logic behind blind faith, and I couldn’t believe in God even if I wanted to.

Ricky Gervais - The Bible is where I am at:

https://youtu.be/3oH0ReL3Cew

 

[Buzzer]

Not come and go as they please but many countries let German Jewish refugees in to their countries.

Apropos of nothing, there's plenty of countries who outright refuse Israelis entry

I'm all for fairness, so if we go after Trump for his comments I'd like the same applied to the leaders of the above countries too. And I wonder what all those countries have in common.

 

[McTavish]

Donald Trump could very well be the next Churchill ,the one to stand up to the threat

Good grief, the threat of what? Muslims? Is Amir Khan coming to get you? Is Rita Ora going to turn up on the X-Factor toting an AK47? Is Mo Farah going to bomb your local?
There is without doubt a threat from certain terrorist organisations but it is tiny for most people in this country (if you are a Muslim in the wrong place, however, it is a significant threat). To demonise Islam and Muslims is entirely counterproductive - who are the 70,000 troops that Dave is depending upon? Oh yes - a bunch of Muslims.

 

[Soulman]

I think you will find that religious bigotry and fanaticism is widespread and I believe that the warring parties in Ulster shared a religion but nonetheless try this one: countless countries have had to deal with the menace of football supporters. Football supporters have caused death and mayhem across the world. Do you think that football supporters should not be allowed to travel abroad? Do you think that the places where football supporters congregate should be shut down? Maybe we should just ban football as this seems to be what attracts these people.

Really desperate examples, really desperate. Ok, we shall look at the non muslim countries where a part of this ideology is causing problems or bombings.. here we go, let's start with France, UK, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, USA, Australia, Thailand, China, India, Israel Russia....and iv'e missed quite a few. Now let's look at the countries that are 90% Islam shall we, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Yemen, Chad, Nigeria, Somalia....and quite a few that i have missed...... a minority, i would say given what we are fed, a lot less than football supporters you mention as a comparison around the world.
Do you really think that football supporters are in the same league..........really, phew.

 

[McTavish]

Apropos of nothing, there's plenty of countries who outright refuse Israelis entry

I'm all for fairness, so if we go after Trump for his comments I'd like the same applied to the leaders of the above countries too. And I wonder what all those countries have in common.

I agree that this is wrong but it is not equivalent to Trump's comments. These countries do not ban Jews, they ban Israelis (or people who have travelled to Israel). If Trump had said that the US should ban Syrians that would still be wrong but at least would not be implying that all Muslims were potential murderers because of their religion.

 

[symyjym]

Already pointed out.

 

[Buzzer]

I agree that this is wrong but it is not equivalent to Trump's comments. These countries do not ban Jews, they ban Israelis (or people who have travelled to Israel). If Trump had said that the US should ban Syrians that would still be wrong but at least would not be implying that all Muslims were potential murderers because of their religion.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. They ban Israelis because it's a Jewish State and they oppose it. Different reasons for banning than Trump, I'll grant you but it still comes down to religion.

 

[McTavish]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. They ban Israelis because it's a Jewish State and they oppose it. Different reasons for banning than Trump, I'll grant you but it still comes down to religion.

Yes, it comes down, in part, to religion but they do not ban all Jews. And nonetheless to imply that because some states ban Israelis that it is somehow not so terrible for Trump to spew his hate-filled ideology is a poor argument.

 

[Soulman]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. They ban Israelis because it's a Jewish State and they oppose it. Different reasons for banning than Trump, I'll grant you but it still comes down to religion.

Funnily enough this just cropped up.
Jews first arrived in China more than 1000 years ago, but many were assimilated over the years. Today, a growing number of Kaifeng’s Jews have begun seeking to return to their roots and embrace their Jewish identity.
http://www.shavei.org/communities/k...g-celebrates-first-night-of-hanukkah/?lang=en

 

[Buzzer]

Yes, it comes down, in part, to religion but they do not ban all Jews. And nonetheless to imply that because some states ban Israelis that it is somehow not so terrible for Trump to spew his hate-filled ideology is a poor argument.

Hang on, I never said that. I said that in fairness if we ban Trump then we should ban the leaders of those other countries with their racist laws. I'm not sure how you've interpreted that as me mitigating Trump's awful comments.

 

[Soulman]

Hang on, I never said that. I said that in fairness if we ban Trump then we should ban the leaders of those other countries with their racist laws. I'm not sure how you've interpreted that as me mitigating Trump's awful comments.

Actually if Trump is banned then all the radical preachers that are allowed in will be stopped also.....and there goes a flying pig.

 

[McTavish]

Really desperate examples, really desperate. Ok, we shall look at the non muslim countries where a part of this ideology is causing problems or bombings.. here we go, let's start with France, UK, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, USA, Australia, Thailand, China, India, Israel Russia....and iv'e missed quite a few. Now let's look at the countries that are 90% Islam shall we, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Yemen, Chad, Nigeria, Somalia....and quite a few that i have missed...... a minority, i would say given what we are fed, a lot less than football supporters you mention as a comparison around the world.
Do you really think that football supporters are in the same league..........really, phew.

Of course I don't think football supporters are in the same league, I am merely pointing out the stupidity of the position that because some Muslims have committed terrorist acts and murder, all Muslims should be considered suspicious and have their freedoms and rights curtailed. If you go through your list of countries, every single one has had deaths or serious injuries as the result of football violence. Do you think that football supporters should be banned from travelling - no, that would be moronic!

 

[looney]

, all Muslims should be considered suspicious and have their freedoms and rights curtailed.

Going to another country is not a right, they have the right to refuse you on any grounds. The truth is most people are now viewing muslims with apprehension at least, then on a scale towards suspension, dislike etc. Something muslims have always done towards kaffers.

 

[McTavish]

Something muslims have always done towards kaffers.

Again lumping all Muslims together. And what on earth are you using the word kaffer for?

 

[McTavish]

Hang on, I never said that. I said that in fairness if we ban Trump then we should ban the leaders of those other countries with their racist laws. I'm not sure how you've interpreted that as me mitigating Trump's awful comments.

Because the corollary of

so if we go after Trump for his comments I'd like the same applied to the leaders of the above countries too

is: if we don't go after these leaders we should not bother with Trump. And it is disingenuous to say that you have introduced this information "apropos of nothing" - you introduced it to make the point that some Muslim countries ban Israelis and therefore it should be OK for the US to ban Muslims. It's not OK in either case.

 

[looney]

Again lumping all Muslims together. And what on earth are you using the word kaffer for?

I didn't say all muslims and kaffer refers to non-muslims.

 

[1901Phil]

I hope you are all aware that an anagram of his name is DAMP OLD RUNT

 

[Buzzer]

Because the corollary of is: if we don't go after these leaders we should not bother with Trump. And it is disingenuous to say that you have introduced this information "apropos of nothing" - you introduced it to make the point that some Muslim countries ban Israelis and therefore it should be OK for the US to ban Muslims. It's not OK in either case.

What utter nonsense.

I'm sorry but I'm not having you put words in my mouth like you have done. I've stated that we should be consistent in application. In no way, whatsoever does that imply that I think Trump's comments are "not so terrible" as you claim.

And you are very wrong to say that I introduced the point about the racist countries to say that it should be okay for the US to ban muslims. I said that if we ban Trump for making those comments then we should ban the leaders of those racist countries also. I've not said whether the US should or shouldn't ban muslims but elsewhere I've described countries that already apply similar rules as racist and called Trump's words as awful so logic would suggest that I'm not in favour.

Please, stop with these straw man arguments.

 

[looney]

Trump is like a breath of fresh air for a couple of reasons.

Provides balance, he is at one extremeand those who say anyone should be allowed in are at the other.It helpsshift the spectrum.

Which is why in part it drives the left batshit crazy. It draws their ire and allows sane reasonable people to have a debate free from extremist bigot jibes.

 

[Creaky]

What utter nonsense.

I'm sorry but I'm not having you put words in my mouth like you have done. I've stated that we should be consistent in application. In no way, whatsoever does that imply that I think Trump's comments are "not so terrible" as you claim.

And you are very wrong to say that I introduced the point about the racist countries to say that it should be okay for the US to ban muslims. I said that if we ban Trump for making those comments then we should ban the leaders of those racist countries also. I've not said whether the US should or shouldn't ban muslims but elsewhere I've described countries that already apply similar rules as racist and called Trump's words as awful so logic would suggest that I'm not in favour.

Please, stop with these straw man arguments.

I agree - we should ban all overseas overtly racist politicians - however I don't think that because we don't do so that should prevent the banning of Donald Trump - someone has to be the first and if Trump is barred from entering the UK it may make it more likely that others will also be barred.