'Days that Changed the World' - Hiroshima

[Northstander]

Yes, why not ? Would you have prefered that allied troops continued to die fighting a conventional war ? What about the civilians of the territories that were still occupied ? Clearly if you'd have been there at the time you'd have prefered to have somebody drop a big bomb than you put your neck on the line (unless you were utterly stupid).

Care to mention who in high office was against the bombings ? Nobody of any importance and certainly nobody who had anything to lose.

Such niavety. Anyway, pointless me arguing with all you PC folks who are so insightful after the fact. Most of the posts here are primarily anti American anyway and believe me, right now I am pretty anti US too.

Why dont we stop the Iraqi conflict, we can simply drop a couple of A bombs on the Iraqis....perhaps this will stop any further loss of life. I know it was Saddam who was responsible for all the attrocities but F*** it the innocent Iraqis are just as responsible!!

 

[JJ McClure]

Have to agree with Bhaexpress. The appalling acts carried out by the Japanese against allied POWs and the nationals of countries that they occupied were truely horrific. Having been to the bridge over the river Kwai and the death railway the evidence is there to see. the cemeteries and museums in the area are a chilling reminder of the past.
By ending using the atom bomb the Americans ensured a quicker end to the pacific conflict. Had they not used it hundreds of thousands more allied troops would have died fighting and in the camps. Not to mention the number of Burmese and Chinese civilians.

 

[alan partridge]

you are incredibly patronising bhaexpress

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441. Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman

"I am convinced that if you, as President, will make a shortwave broadcast to the people of Japan - tell them they can have their Emperor if they surrender, that it will not mean unconditional surrender except for the militarists - you'll get a peace in Japan - you'll have both wars over."
- Herbert Hoover

"...the Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary."

William Manchester, American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, pg. 512.

"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs."

McCloy quoted in James Reston, Deadline, pg. 500
(Assistant Sec. of War)

 

[Northstander]

Have to agree with Bhaexpress. The appalling acts carried out by the Japanese against allied POWs and the nationals of countries that they occupied were truely horrific. Having been to the bridge over the river Kwai and the death railway the evidence is there to see. the cemeteries and museums in the area are a chilling reminder of the past.
By ending using the atom bomb the Americans ensured a quicker end to the pacific conflict. Had they not used it hundreds of thousands more allied troops would have died fighting and in the camps. Not to mention the number of Burmese and Chinese civilians.

And how many civillians from Nagasaki or Hiroshima were at the bridge or enforcing the pow camps. It was the Japanese government and military!!! Why should 90,000 civillians suffer??

Please read my prev reply, shall we do the same in Iraq??

 

[bhaexpress]

And you're incredibly ignorant Partridge.

When it comes down to it who's lives were more important ? Those of allied troops and civilians or those of a nation who started an imperialist war ?

God you PC idiots make me sick.

 

[alan partridge]

you really are a f***ing prat aren't you.

someone disagrees with you. they're a pc idiot.

moron.

 

[Northstander]

I am not even bothering to argue this anymore, older generation, older out of date opinions!!!

 

[Icy Gull]

Slightly off the topic but something that shows how easily children can be influenced.

At Christmas some friends of mine gave their 10 year old daughter a "badge it" set. She started making the badges and discussing the flags on them, her 4 year old brother grabbed one with the American flag on it and said " I know what this one is, it's the flag of war"

 

[Uncle Buck]

I sort of agree with both views on this, there has always been a feeling that the US wanted to drop one of these bombs to see what it did, but it was also a well documented fact that to invade mainland Japan it was going to cost McArthur over 1 million troops. THe US had taken a hell of a battering during the campaign to take the Pacific Islands.

We were out in Japan, we made the trip down to Hiroshima and went to the peace museum. For those that say the Japanese erase their actions from history, well all school children have to visit this place. I was expecting the museum to be very biased, however it was very impartial, explaining why the US dropped the bomb, to get the unconditional surrender and the fact the life's lost were less than via a convential invasion. The museum goes on to show the horrors of nuclear weapons etc and you do walk around thinking this is very balanced, fair play to them.

However the last thing you see before leaving the musuem is a life size model of children running away from the devistation and all the skin hanging off their arms.

 

[Northstander]

That admittedley is something of great significance. I even feel (Iam 31yrs old) that the Yanks feel the need to be the worlds peace keepers and all who do not agree with what they are doing, well they had better watch out for the B52's!!!!

 

[Easy 10]

Wiping out thousands upon thousands of innocent Japanese men, women and children at a stroke was one of the darkest moments of human history in my opinion. You can rightly say that the Japanese regime at the time was evil and cruel, and committed many atrocities during the war, but in my opinion, that still does not provide justification for dropping an atomic bomb, levelling a city, and indiscriminately slaughtering thousands of civilians there and then, not forgetting the ramifications for future generations.

If thats "political correctness" on my part then so be it. I just do not believe that the civilians of Hiroshima/Nagasaki "got what they deserved" simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[alan partridge]

I sort of agree with both views on this, there has always been a feeling that the US wanted to drop one of these bombs to see what it did, but it was also a well documented fact that to invade mainland Japan it was going to cost McArthur over 1 million troops. THe US had taken a hell of a battering during the campaign to take the Pacific Islands.

We were out in Japan, we made the trip down to Hiroshima and went to the peace museum. For those that say the Japanese erase their actions from history, well all school children have to visit this place. I was expecting the museum to be very biased, however it was very impartial, explaining why the US dropped the bomb, to get the unconditional surrender and the fact the life's lost were less than via a convential invasion. The museum goes on to show the horrors of nuclear weapons etc and you do walk around thinking this is very balanced, fair play to them.

yes i know what you mean ub

however the million figure is one that has been greatly exaggerated. a qoute here from a historian who advised at the smithsonian (where the enola gay is displayed)
'Barton Bernstein is a Stanford historian who advised the Smithsonian curators on their initial exhibit. He is critical of estimates of high U.S. casualties in an invasion of Japan, suggesting a figure of 63,000 dead instead of half a million. He considers the atomic bombing a horror that went beyond conventional firebombing because of its radiation aftereffects on residents and the unborn.'

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Never saw the programme but how could a little kid with a tricycle 'get what he deserved'? Jeez!

 

[tedebear]

I agree easy 10 - although IMHO it is just part and parcel of the way the Americans tend to act.....

they do now and think later....and the ramifications of Hiroshima are still being felt

 

[Northstander]

Wiping out thousands upon thousands of innocent Japanese men, women and children at a stroke was one of the darkest moments of human history in my opinion. You can rightly say that the Japanese regime at the time was evil and cruel, and committed many atrocities during the war, but in my opinion, that still does not provide justification for dropping an atomic bomb, levelling a city, and indiscriminately slaughtering thousands of civilians there and then, not forgetting the ramifications for future generations.

If thats "political correctness" on my part then so be it. I just do not believe that the civilians of Hiroshima/Nagasaki "got what they deserved" simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

AGREED!!!

 

[Deano's Right Foot]

I read John Hersey's book on Hiroshima as a teenager and it brought home the horror of it all. I would recommend anyone to read it if it's still in print. While it's true that the Japanese committed atrocities during WW2 IMHO there was no way that this show of force was needed to end the war, especially when you read Alan Partridge's posts above. How can the death of so many civilians followed by generations of the effects of the radiation possibly be justified?

 

[Meade's Ball]

When it comes down to it who's lives were more important ? Those of allied troops and civilians or those of a nation who started an imperialist war ?

God you PC idiots make me sick.

Yeah lets nuke all imperialists warmongers!

Oh. Nuts.

 

[Dover]

I did not watch the programme, but have seen previous documentaries on the dropping of the two H Bombs and their horrific effects.

Since the dropping of these two horrific bombs no country has ever done this again. Has that shown anyting. Maybe this is because people would fear a tit for tat response from other nations.

What I do hope however is that the devesation these weapons caused is there for all the world, and is leaders to see, and hopefully they would never consider the use of atomic weapons.

 

[Northstander]

A top quality programme clearly showing peoples strong views on the subject!!

 

[Brovion]

and POW camps where invented by?

England.

fact.

Actually it was civilian Concentration Camps we 'invented' as opposed to Prisoner of War camps (although I believe we got the idea from the Americans). This was during the 2nd Boer War when the British rounded up the Boer families, destroyed their farms and shoved them into camps.