[Politics] Dawn Butler MP

[CheeseRolls]

I’m not a fan of Boris , he’s probably the weakest Conservative PM in living memory but Dawn Butler epitomises everything that’s wrong with Labour . Big mouth and lacking in intellect.

I wonder what an opinionated black women would have to do to meet your criteria for intellect?

My suspicion is that it is a two part requirement, the first is to keep her opinions to herself and the threshold for the second is so high as to be unattainable.

 

[Bakero]

I wonder what an opinionated black women would have to do to meet your criteria for intellect?

My suspicion is that it is a two part requirement, the first is to keep her opinions to herself and the threshold for the second is so high as to be unattainable.

I imagine he wants to hear her opinions on knife crime.

 

[Randy McNob]

I’m not a fan of Boris , he’s probably the weakest Conservative PM in living memory but Dawn Butler epitomises everything that’s wrong with Labour . Big mouth and lacking in intellect.

I listened to her interview on LBC and thought she came across very well, down to earth and very admirable what she did.

Don't fall into the trap of confusing talking posh and intellect. Take Jacob Rees-Mogg as an example, talks elequently but is an idiot

If there were more Dawn Butlers in this world and less Boris's, Rees-Moogs and all the other public educated priveledged elites the country would be a far better place

 

[nicko31]

All politicians are liars. It's what they do.

We all lie, but Johnson has taken things to a new level. Its the norm, it will only end when this type of politics is rejected by public.

I don't think we've hit the bottom yet...

 

[Hugo Rune]

Great thread

The NSC Clownerati shocked that politicians sometimes lie

Naive fools a plenty


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Everyone knows politicians lie sometimes. I think people are actually shocked that Boris could sometimes not lie.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The biggest Liar was Blair. He got away with it somehow at a cost of thousands of innocent lives

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150,000 dead with Covid after allowing Cheltenham and the Liverpool match to go ahead. A trade deal with India taking precedent over making India a red listed country.

How many died in Iraq? As part of NATO, we back America on most conflicts, the most notable that we didn't was Vietnam.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I always liked the Barack Obama description of the 3 PM's he met :

Blair : Sizzle and Substance
Brown : Subtance
Cameron : Sizzle

God only knows how he'd describe Johnson.

One of Obama's aides called him a Shape Shifting creep. 9th November 2020

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

For those people who think this should be allowed think of the consequences. Anybody with whom someone disagrees would be called a liar. These rules exist for a reason and that is to encourage democratic debate rather than name calling.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

150,000 dead with Covid after allowing Cheltenham and the Liverpool match to go ahead. A trade deal with India taking precedent over making India a red listed country.

How many died in Iraq? As part of NATO, we back America on most conflicts, the most notable that we didn't was Vietnam.

100% agree with you - but let's remember there were still 6 MILLION tube journeys a day being made long after Cheltenham /Liverpool....

 

[Randy McNob]

For those people who think this should be allowed think of the consequences. Anybody with whom someone disagrees would be called a liar. These rules exist for a reason and that is to encourage democratic debate rather than name calling.

Perhaps if the PM respected the Ministerial code it wouldn't have come to this

 

[Happy Exile]

Perhaps if the PM respected the Ministerial code it wouldn't have come to this

It should also be allowed if the objective truth is presented (as I believe it was in this case) so the person being accused of lying can either retract and apologise or be exposed for the liar they are. It'd make debate much more effective if lying simply wasn't possible. Imagine how different this country would be if MPs were obliged to tell the truth rather than hide behind parliamentary convention.

 

[Danny Wilson Said]

The biggest Liar was Blair. He got away with it somehow at a cost of thousands of innocent lives

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Do you mean that he told the biggest lie, or that he lied most often? I can't believe it's the second, because Johnson lies almost every time he opens his mouth.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It should also be allowed if the objective truth is presented (as I believe it was in this case) so the person being accused of lying can either retract and apologise or be exposed for the liar they are. It'd make debate much more effective if lying simply wasn't possible. Imagine how different this country would be if MPs were obliged to tell the truth rather than hide behind parliamentary convention.

There is nothing wrong with presenting objective truth. Of course it is allowed. Voters can then make their own minds up. Just no need to add a subjective insult.

 

[HH Brighton]

For those people who think this should be allowed think of the consequences. Anybody with whom someone disagrees would be called a liar. These rules exist for a reason and that is to encourage democratic debate rather than name calling.

Well that would only be true if she just called him a liar but the she ran through several examples of facts that he said in parliament that weren't true and he knew this. Therefore its lie and needs to be voiced as such. We need more MP's like Dawn Butler, Jess Phillips etc. Real people standing for election for the right reasons.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

For those people who think this should be allowed think of the consequences. Anybody with whom someone disagrees would be called a liar. These rules exist for a reason and that is to encourage democratic debate rather than name calling.

I've watched the clip and at no point did Dawn Butler call him anything, let alone a liar. What she did do, was describe his actions, which was lying. One is a verb, the other is a noun.

 

[Happy Exile]

There is nothing wrong with presenting objective truth. Of course it is allowed. Voters can then make their own minds up. Just no need to add a subjective insult.

I kind of agree, but without the requirement to retract a statement of falsehood it becomes presented as an opinion or an argument on points of view when it's not: its misleadingly not telling the truth deliberately or otherwise. If its not deliberate then an apology should be easy. If there's no apology then what else are they but liars?

I'd support live fact checking in parliament to hold MPs to account and that way this would never be an issue.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Well that would only be true if she just called him a liar but the she ran through several examples of facts that he said in parliament that weren't true and he knew this. Therefore its lie and needs to be voiced as such. We need more MP's like Dawn Butler, Jess Phillips etc. Real people standing for election for the right reasons.

I've watched the clip and at no point did Dawn Butler call him anything, let alone a liar. What she did do, was describe his actions, which was lying. One is a verb, the other is a noun.

My mistake. I was relying on the account given by the OP of this thread and didn’t actually watch the clip.

 

[1066familyman]

150,000 dead with Covid after allowing Cheltenham and the Liverpool match to go ahead. A trade deal with India taking precedent over making India a red listed country.

How many died in Iraq? As part of NATO, we back America on most conflicts, the most notable that we didn't was Vietnam.

All our Governments follow old colonial foreign policies unfortunately. That basically translates now into the US saying jump and us asking how high.

Short of Tony Benn calling the shots, which unfortunately he never did, it always remains the same.

Remind me who created the oil rich gulf state of Kuwait again?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My mistake. I was relying on the account given by the OP of this thread and didn’t actually watch the clip.

No problem.

All our Governments follow old colonial foreign policies unfortunately. That basically translates now into the US saying jump and us asking how high.

Short of Tony Benn calling the shots, which unfortunately he never did, it always remains the same.

Remind me who created the oil rich gulf state of Kuwait again?

Exactly.

 

[highflyer]

150,000 dead with Covid after allowing Cheltenham and the Liverpool match to go ahead. A trade deal with India taking precedent over making India a red listed country.

How many died in Iraq? As part of NATO, we back America on most conflicts, the most notable that we didn't was Vietnam.

Probably more than 150,000 people have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

That doesn't take account of the wider instability and ripple effects of the conflict across the world. But of course it also doesn't deal with the unknown's of what would have happened in the absence of an invasion. Endless if, buts and maybes involved. As there is with Covid and any decisions taken.

But I would never play down the magnitude of the disaster that the Iraq war was,and still is, and the arrogance and hubris of the Bush-Blair coalition that created it. And I'd never play down the imporance to Bush of having Blairs unquestioning support.