Crisis for Cameron & the Conservatives.

[User removed 4]

its not really a crisis, its just some rabble rousing from anti-euro quater so that they get some other concession instead. they know full well that by the time of the next election, the EU constitution will be ratified and probably the President and Foreign Minister appointed, so a vote against it would be utterly pointless, you cant un-ratify it.

shame those in Labour who are against closer Federal europe haven't had the courage to step forward the past 15 years.

I've often heard that argument , that we couldn't 'unratify' the treaty, serious question, what could they do if we did ? France ignores the european rules they don't like , what's stopping us ? I seriously think that there isn't a lot they could do if we decided to unratify the constitution , sorry treaty !

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

If we did as the French and Germans do just ignoring the EU rules that they disagree about , the Lisbon Treaty wouldn't be an issue.

 

[beorhthelm]

I've often heard that argument , that we couldn't 'unratify' the treaty, serious question, what could they do if we did ?

it isnt an argument, its a statement of fact. once all member state ratify the Lisbon consitution, those posts and bodies it legislates for come in to being. The President of the EU becomes a permenant President for 2 years term. If we chose to "unratify" it, that post wont be dissolved. We can ignore it, carry on our own bilateral politics around the world, and hopefully we would do.

 

[Brovion]

Lots of good posts here.

I disagree with the original statement, handled correctly I don't think it is a crisis for Cameron; indeed if he handles it well it could be a vote winner. He'll have to admit that the Treaty is a done deal and a referendum would now be pointless. But he could also point out that it's not his fault, due to timing the Conservative cavalry will arrive over the hill just too late to save Britain. Why? Because Labour reneged on their promise to hold a referendum. Motto? Don't trust Labour!

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

But why not hold the referendum anyway? It would essentially be a vote on the UK's (actually, probably just England's) continued membership of the EU which would then lance the boil that Conservative leaders have had to contend with for decades.
If the result is the leave then so be it, no doubt the population are fully prepared for life outside the EU, and EFTA too as I can't see any administration agreeing to automatically adopt EU legislation (ie on the single market) in which they have had no say.

 

[Hunting 784561]

Good grief.

Nearly a whole page on Europe and the Lisbon Treaty, yet no one has mentioned the fact that we beat Johnny Dago and The Hun in WW2.

Shame on you..

 

[Scampi]

Good grief.

Nearly a whole page on Europe and the Lisbon Treaty, yet no one has mentioned the fact that we beat Johnny Dago and The Hun in WW2.

Shame on you..

Don't forget Waterloo and Agincourt.

 

[sten_super]

But why not hold the referendum anyway? It would essentially be a vote on the UK's (actually, probably just England's) continued membership of the EU which would then lance the boil that Conservative leaders have had to contend with for decades.
If the result is the leave then so be it, no doubt the population are fully prepared for life outside the EU, and EFTA too as I can't see any administration agreeing to automatically adopt EU legislation (ie on the single market) in which they have had no say.

The reason that the Tories won't, and Labour haven't, held a referendum is because the British people would vote against it. Everyone involved in politics knows that, but, despite what some people on here may argue, they also accept that we are better off economically in than out. Until there is a decent chance of a positive vote on European integration, we won't have one in this country.

 

[Brovion]

But why not hold the referendum anyway? It would essentially be a vote on the UK's (actually, probably just England's) continued membership of the EU which would then lance the boil that Conservative leaders have had to contend with for decades.
If the result is the leave then so be it, no doubt the population are fully prepared for life outside the EU, and EFTA too as I can't see any administration agreeing to automatically adopt EU legislation (ie on the single market) in which they have had no say.

But the Referendum wasn't going to be on actual E.C. membership was it? Just on the Treaty. Although admittedly to try and engineer a 'Yes' vote the political elite would have presented it as "well it's either ratify the Treaty or we have to get out of the E.C." There seems to be no middle ground for those of us who have no problems with the E.C. as a group of friendly nations working in close co-operation with each other but don't want to be railroaded towards a European superstate without having SOME say in the matter at the very least.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Can you think of one country getting into difficulties by staying out of an economic/political block?

Albania? North Korea?

 

[Cullip4]

We already have an economic/political block its called the Commonwealth, I think sometimes we are too quick to forget who our friends and enemies really are.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

The reason that the Tories won't, and Labour haven't, held a referendum is because the British people would vote against it.

Quite probably but the Conservatives have promised they would hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government has not. It was originally planned to be adopted in early 2009 so I guess that David Cameron et al always new that this was an empty promise?

Everyone involved in politics knows that, but, despite what some people on here may argue, they also accept that we are better off economically in than out.

So do I, and also politically.

Until there is a decent chance of a positive vote on European integration, we won't have one in this country.

I think the Conservatives have an opportunity here to decide where they want to go with the EU; imo they're likely to avoid the issue again but maybe it suits to portray "Europe" as some sort of malignant tumour.

 

[Brovion]

We already have an economic/political block its called the Commonwealth, I think sometimes we are too quick to forget who our friends and enemies really are.

Interestingly in the 1975 referendum that was one of the arguments put up by elements of the 'No' lobby. As well as the emotional 'turing our backs on our allies and siding with our enemies' line they also gave dire and inaccurate warnings about how the EEC (as it was then) would do things like ban us from importing New Zealand lamb.

It's funny how times change. Now it's the pro-federalists who give us the dire warnings about how bad life will be outside the glorified labour camp we're heading towards.

 

[pork pie]

They need to learn we need Europe or we go down the drain. Well we need Europe if we want to stay as an economic power.

Too bloody right! Look at the mess that Switzerland is in!

 

[Gwylan]

Nearly a whole page on Europe and the Lisbon Treaty, yet no one has mentioned the fact that we beat Johnny Dago and The Hun in WW2.
.

Er no...Spain was neutral in WW2.


I must say that I agree with Brovion's thesis that, if played right, this is not really a crisis for the Conservatives and could actually be to their benefit. However, never underestimate the propensity for various elements of the Tory party to lose it when "Europe" is mentioned. If the anti-Euro nutters go over the top about this and start calling for leadership challenges, it could be a spectacular own goal.

Speaking personally, I'm not really in favour of referenda, governments are there to govern and I don't want to be called to vote every time that a government thinks a decision could be tricky - we're not Swiss you know.

 

[k2bluesky]

If we did as the French and Germans do just ignoring the EU rules that they disagree about , the Lisbon Treaty wouldn't be an issue.

Absolutely, but this government has no balls at all, just chuck money at it is their only answer to anything, instead of making tough, sometimes unpopular choices but as the EU is a socialist group they are secretly quite happy to go along with it, hence no referendum.

 

[Hunting 784561]

Er no...Spain was neutral in WW2.


.

ok, Johnny Eyetie then.

- they really do all look the same to me

 

[pork pie]

Quite probably but the Conservatives have promised they would hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government has not. It was originally planned to be adopted in early 2009 so I guess that David Cameron et al always new that this was an empty promise?

The Government did promise a referendum on a European Constitution - then they allowed virtually the same document to be dressed-up as another "treaty" and suggested it was only a minor document tidying up procedural matters, not worthy of giving the British people a choice over - because they knew damn well they would never win.

The document actually creates the "United States of Europe", and takes away virtually all of our sovereignty. We can no longer veto important legislation, and it goes far beyond a trading agreement, which is all the British people ever agreed to in '75.

To get a better deal for us in Europe is now virtually impossible, and the Torys must realise that they will end up with a straight choice of accept the situation as it is, or withdraw from the EU. Thoughts of stable doors and bolted horses spring to mind.

 

[beorhthelm]

Quite probably but the Conservatives have promised they would hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government has not. It was originally planned to be adopted in early 2009 so I guess that David Cameron et al always new that this was an empty promise?

over 2 years ago when the policy was made they expected the Irish to vote NO again, the Eastern bloc countries to hold out and iirc there was Dutch or Danish up in the air. the world changed, in particular the Irish No vote collapsed, partially due to massive funding of the Yes campiagn with EU money

and funny how Labour are trying to make something of this "broken promise" when they have backed out of thier manifesto pledge to hold a referendum... oh, silly, its not a "constitution" so dont need to stick to that, even if the only change was the title.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

I don't think it is a crisis. Europe (both this and the new grouping the tories are in) seems to be the only thing that Labour want to attack them on. Labour will try to pick some holes but they can't pick too hard as they were the party that said they didn't need a referendum anyway.