[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[kuzushi]

Brilliant you are really pinning them down to two possibilities.

Keep going so they all forget any other possibilities.

You've nearly got them . . . group hallucination or God.

You can propose as many possibilities as you like.
How would you account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus went around proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus pretty much immediately after the crucifixion?
It looks like Jolly Red Giant is having a go with some kind of 'shade' theory. (He doesn't subscribe to Ehrman's group hallucination theory).

 

[kuzushi]

Occam's razor: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem


____________________________Accounts for the empty tomb_____________Explains the provenance of the Shroud of Turin
Kuzushi's resurrection theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Bart Ehrman's GH* theory__________________________________________________________________________________
JRG's 'shade' theory______________________________________________________________________________________



*group hallucination

 

[kuzushi]

I've thought of another theory.
Maybe Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Maybe time-travelling aliens took the body away (that would account for the missing body), fabricated the shroud (accounts for that), and created a cyborg that looked like Jesus to appear and fool the disciples.

____________________________Accounts for the empty tomb_____________Explains the provenance of the Shroud of Turin
Kuzushi's resurrection theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Kuzushi's alien cyborg theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Bart Ehrman's GH* theory__________________________________________________________________________________
JRG's 'shade' theory______________________________________________________________________________________

I'm good at this. Two theories that both pass Occam's razor. Looks like Ehrman and JRG need to raise their game.

 

[kuzushi]

I've thought of another theory.
Maybe Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Maybe time-travelling aliens took the body away (that would account for the missing body), fabricated the shroud (accounts for that), and created a cyborg that looked like Jesus to appear and fool the disciples.

____________________________Accounts for the empty tomb_____________Explains the provenance of the Shroud of Turin
Kuzushi's resurrection theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Kuzushi's alien cyborg theory_______________________________________________________________________________
Bart Ehrman's GH* theory__________________________________________________________________________________
JRG's 'shade' theory______________________________________________________________________________________

I'm good at this. Two theories that both pass Occam's razor. Looks like Ehrman and JRG need to raise their game.

Let's bear in mind which theory the early church themselves subscribed to

 

[BadFish]

You can propose as many possibilities as you like.
How would you account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus went around proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus pretty much immediately after the crucifixion?
It looks like Jolly Red Giant is having a go with some kind of 'shade' theory. (He doesn't subscribe to Ehrman's group hallucination theory).

I know that he was touched by God, just like you and me have been.

Once touched we only know one truth.

 

[kuzushi]

I know that he was touched by God, just like you and me have been.

Once touched we only know one truth.

Why do you call yourself Bad Fish?

 

[Muzzman]

I'm good at this.

Narcissist. Like most Christians I know.

 

[BadFish]

Why do you call yourself Bad Fish?

Noah wouldn't let us on the ark, something about it not being necessary because we were fish.

Our conclusion was that fish were bad. And we still must me.

 

[kuzushi]

Noah wouldn't let us on the ark, something about it not being necessary because we were fish.

Our conclusion was that fish were bad. And we still must me.

But you have a picture of a cat.

 

[BadFish]

But you have a picture of a cat.

The lord moves in mysterious ways.

 

[kuzushi]

Narcissist. Like most Christians I know.

I'm good at thinking up theories to account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus began proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus in the face of severe opposition more or less immediately after the crucifixion and that pass Occam's razor test*. You'd probably be good at it, too. You try.

*To be honest the resurrection theory isn't one I thought up. It's just always been the default explanation.

 

[BadFish]

I'm good at thinking up theories to account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus began proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus in the face of severe opposition more or less immediately after the crucifixion and that pass Occam's razor test*. You'd probably be good at it, too. You try.

*To be honest the resurrection theory isn't one I thought up. It's just always been the default explanation.

The good lord has certainly blessed his chosen flock with the innate skill of making up stuff

The father's that touched me recently taught me valuable skills in deception they learned from Georgie Pell.

The non believers can scoff and scold all they want but they still prey at our alter and cast their gold into our collection plates.

 

[kuzushi]

The lord moves in mysterious ways.

Have you thought of your theory yet to account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus began proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus in the face of severe opposition more or less immediately after the crucifixion and that passes Occam's razor test?

 

[BadFish]

Have you thought of your theory yet to account for the fact that the early followers of Jesus began proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus in the face of severe opposition more or less immediately after the crucifixion and that passes Occam's razor test?

I don't need to work on my own theories I have now been touched by Jesus, all the theories I need are in the good book, its obvious, if people really really believe something then it must be true.

I never have to think again

You have been right all along, Jesus is the way to liberation.

 

[kuzushi]

The good lord has certainly blesses his chosen flock with the innate skill of making up stuff.

Well, they began proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus in the face of severe opposition more or less immediately after the crucifixion. Do you think they made it up?

 

[kuzushi]

Jesus is the way to liberation.

Yeah, I know.

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Jesus Christ, circa 30AD

 

[BadFish]

Well, they began proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus in the face of severe opposition more or less immediately after the crucifixion. Do you think they made it up?

No silly, not that bit. That bit is true because they really believed it to be true.

 

[kuzushi]

if people really really believe something then it must be true.

Alas, no.
People can be mistaken. Take the early followers of Jesus, for example. They really really believed that they saw Jesus alive and well again after his crucifixion (which would account for the empty tomb that nobody could deny, and the provenance of the Shroud of Turin). They really really believed it so much that many of them ended up losing their lives because of it. But they might just have had a group hallucination. Or a shade theory thing might have happened.

 

[Happy Exile]

I get why people are shying away from admitting the obvious fact that the early Christians believed that Christ rose from the dead.
It does leave you with a choice between the resurrection being true, which would mean having to believe in God, or Bart Ehrman's group hallucination theory.

This kind of incredibly reductionist, binary argument is why I think this is a troll. It's obvious that early Christians believed in resurrection, that doesn't mean it happened and there is a God any more than it necessarily means there was group hallucination. You have to look at why they believed that - I believe they were conned into it by the 1st century equivalents of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage but with more of a moral compass than either of those two. Resurrection was just about the most convenient thing the early Christians could have possibly come up with to get followers and avoid being wiped out and to continue their revolutionary movement. It didn't come out of nowhere like "hey, this mad thing has happened! What can it possibly mean?"

In fact, it's so convenient it's almost like the Gospels admit it by being "surprised" about the resurrection.

It matched the contemporary metaphor about the restoration of Israel which was literally a dead person being physically resurrected...so the early followers get the political revolutionaries on side, it explained why he'd failed to fulfil the Messianic promise and enabled the logic of that promise to be changed to fit circumstances so they got the religious followers with them (I bet the followers of Theodas and Dositheos and many of his other contemporaries were kicking themselves they didn't think of it), it fitted the revolutionary religious philosophy of the time too which claimed physical resurrection was possible not just spiritual, and it even gave them a path to making the Pharisees allies against the Sadducees...they had so many reasons to claim resurrection, and if they wanted to go on living as they were very few not to claim it. And yes, many of them didn't live much longer but there's a high chance that would have happened sooner or later simply because of their association with Jesus whether they'd carried on preaching or not.

 

[BadFish]

Alas, no.
People can be mistaken. Take the early followers of Jesus, for example. They really really believed that they saw Jesus alive and well again after his crucifixion (which would account for the empty tomb that nobody could deny, and the provenance of the Shroud of Turin). They really really believed it so much that many of them ended up losing their lives because of it. But they might just have had a group hallucination. Or a shade theory thing might have happened.

Don't lose faith brother, you will again soon be touched once more.