[Politics] Capital Punishment

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Your last sentence is interesting. To briefly go off on a tangent, that's how I feel about meat eaters. Especially pet owning meat eaters. Easy to hide from the reality of a slaughterhouse and pick up your dead animal to eat already killed and prepared for you. I suspect they'd be a lot more Vegans and Vegetarians in the world if the dirty work wasn't already done for them.

Anyway, enough of that. I'll get back on topic, and your point, sort of, with this instead:

Very good point.

So I will own up to being speciesist. Humans first. Meat therefore isn't murder...

 

[BadFish]

I have voted for the first option and agree with the reasons already stated on this thread.

The most compelling arguments in favour of capital punishment seem to be people confusing revenge with justice. Someone on the Ian Hislop video quoted Desmond Tutu "to take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, it is not justice. There is a reason why punishment and justice are dealt out by people independent of the crime. This has been the case for a very long time and for very good reason.

I have never seen any worthwhile evidence that Capital Punishment acts as a deterrent?

https://www.aclu.org/other/death-pe...has no,discredited by social science research.

https://deathpenalty.procon.org/que...e consensus among,of long-term imprisonment.”

 

[Hamilton]

I don't believe in the taking of life so how can I support in the taking of life.

 

[Beach Hut]

Isn't that his modus operandi?

100%

 

[BadFish]

Yes, sadly the world has changed - not entirely for the better - since we abolished the death penalty in 1964 (or whenever it actually was - 1964 was the last execution). Unthinkable thiufh it might have been back in the hopeful days of the 1960s - and many decades since - 9/11, 7/7 and DNA have shifted the landscape.
Human rights for Ian Huntley and Roy Whiting anyone? (Yes, I know people will be queueing up to protect their rights on NSC, so as a minority opinion I'll leave this thread before the inevitable outrage).

I may have missed it but, has anyone actually put forward the argument of protecting the 'human rights of murderers in this thread? Aside from not wanting them killed, I don't think it has been mentioned.

I think that the rights of prisoners is an interesting discussion though, as a few people have mentioned the cushy conditions of prison. Maybe this would be worthy of a show for Lenny? An investigation into the state of the UK's prison system and the human rights of its inhabitants.

https://www.gov.uk/life-in-prison/prisoner-privileges-and-rights

 

[GT49er]

I have voted for the first option and agree with the reasons already stated on this thread.

The most compelling arguments in favour of capital punishment seem to be people confusing revenge with justice. Someone on the Ian Hislop video quoted Desmond Tutu "to take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, it is not justice. There is a reason why punishment and justice are dealt out by people independent of the crime. This has been the case for a very long time and for very good reason.

I have never seen any worthwhile evidence that Capital Punishment acts as a deterrent? https://www.aclu.org/other/death-pe...has no,discredited by social science research.

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending? Well, not a question really - you obviously will cotinue to do so.

 

[portlock seagull]

Of course not.

And all the Icy Gull seeks is revenge, not justice. Call that civilised?

That’s a common cry, “revenge not justice.” Thinking about though, is revenge not completely natural feeling and therefore justice? What is maybe wrong with wanting someone to also die if they eg murdered your family? Their death would maybe give greater peace to victims families than perhaps them getting out of prison after 8-10 years and walking around with a smirk on their face. Therefore, have we perhaps forgotten punishments, and gone too far towards redemption? Anyway, I don’t think “revenge, not justice” is a strong argument against capital punishment. Far stronger is the chance of mistakes, that’s where my reservation lies and why I’m still against. Whether it’s uncivilised is another matter and rather subjective. For example, in a civilised society we shouldn’t be letting people starve or die of cold. But we do. So not sure truly civilised society has or ever will exist? Hanging a murderer would seem below that on any list of ideals to aspire to? In my mind anyway.

 

[clapham_gull]

 

[drew]

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending? Well, not a question really - you obviously will cotinue to do so.

He didn't ignore it, he referred to deterrent.

 

[BadFish]

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending? Well, not a question really - you obviously will cotinue to do so.

This is the first time that I have seen any mention of re-offending on this thread. Do you have a link to it or would you care to elaborate?

Edit: I found these stats about re offending https://criminology.research.southw...g these 177 men, 13,theft or illicit drug use).

My question though is that is this issue best dealt with capital punishment or another way. As others have said surely if prison sentences were longer and life meant life then this reoffending would be reduced. I would also suggest that the testing for successful rehabilitation may also need to be looked at.

Do you have any evidence that Capital Punishment is the best way to address re-offending?

 

[dazzer6666]

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the evidence on re-offending? Well, not a question really - you obviously will cotinue to do so.

If life actually meant life in prison, the chances of reoffending would be quite small.

 

[clapham_gull]

Isn't that his modus operandi?

I think this site gets more hits than his own.

 

[portlock seagull]

If life actually meant life in prison, the chances of reoffending would be quite small.

This is the crux of it. Take someone’s life in this country, and sadly many now doing so are kids, and you get a perfectly good life outside of prison afterwards. You might be 15 when you killed, and good chance you’ll be out in your twenties. Not much of a deterrent is it? But if life = natural life then people may think twice AND fewer people would want capital punishment. Surely?

 

[pastafarian]

Your last sentence is interesting. To briefly go off on a tangent, that's how I feel about meat eaters. Especially pet owning meat eaters. Easy to hide from the reality of a slaughterhouse and pick up your dead animal to eat already killed and prepared for you. I suspect they'd be a lot more Vegans and Vegetarians in the world if the dirty work wasn't already done for them.

If we were still hunter gatherers i would no doubt do my bit on the hunt to bring home some meat, and butcher the kill ( presuming i had the skills to do so). But society has evolved and we divvy up the skills.
I like a glass of water from the tap. That doesnt mean im prepared to collect my own waste and clean and filter it. I let others more skilled in that do the job.

Anyway, back on topic, shit poll options.

 

[Swansman]

This is the crux of it. Take someone’s life in this country, and sadly many now doing so are kids, and you get a perfectly good life outside of prison afterwards. You might be 15 when you killed, and good chance you’ll be out in your twenties. Not much of a deterrent is it? But if life = natural life then people may think twice AND fewer people would want capital punishment. Surely?

Kiddo is 15, might be another ten years until he fully matures, he completely changes his ways the next 15 years and is a model prisoner and model individual by the way he is 30, clearly the murder can never be undone but it seems he will give a lot back to society... is then sensible to use £2m in tax money to keep him locked up until he dies 50 years later?

 

[BadFish]

Kiddo is 15, might be another ten years until he fully matures, he completely changes his ways the next 15 years and is a model prisoner and model individual by the way he is 30, clearly the murder can never be undone but it seems he will give a lot back to society... is then sensible to use £2m in tax money to keep him locked up until he dies 50 years later?

The philosophy of the UK justice system certainly includes rehabilitation. It isn't a perfect science and mistakes are made but I support this philosophy and believe that is the correct goal for the system.

I would also add that it must be necessary for some cases to sit outside this philosophy. Some cannot be rehabilitated.

 

[GT49er]

If life actually meant life in prison, the chances of reoffending would be quite small.

Yes it would - but that's one hell of a big 'what if', isn't it! Free board and logding - at yours and mine expense - £8K a week isn't it? Is a proven (including admission, circumstantial and DNA evidence) child rapist and murderer's life worth that?

Fundme@roywhiting.com - going to sign up? Hypocrites allowed to comment ...................................

 

[drew]

Yes it would - but that's one hell of a big 'what if', isn't it! Free board and logding - at yours and mine expense - £8K a week isn't it? Is a proven (including admission, circumstantial and DNA evidence) child rapist and murderer's life worth that?

Fundme@roywhiting.com - going to sign up? Hypocrites allowed to comment ...................................

Roy Whiting is in jail at least until 2041 when he'll be 82 and there is no suggestion he'll even be released then!

As for £8k a week, where on earth do you get your figures from?

There are plenty of murderers that get sentenced and end up never seeing the light of day again.

 

[dazzer6666]

Yes it would - but that's one hell of a big 'what if', isn't it! Free board and logding - at yours and mine expense - £8K a week isn't it? Is a proven (including admission, circumstantial and DNA evidence) child rapist and murderer's life worth that?

Fundme@roywhiting.com - going to sign up? Hypocrites allowed to comment ...................................

So, given a choice you’d reintroduce the death penalty rather than strengthen sentences and make conditions less favourable for those on longer sentences (‘free board and lodging,’ - but in pretty shit conditions for the rest of your life). Fair enough, but I wouldn’t - it can’t be right to kill people IMO.

 

[BadFish]

Roy Whiting is in jail at least until 2041 when he'll be 82 and there is no suggestion he'll even be released then!

As for £8k a week, where on earth do you get your figures from?

There are plenty of murderers that get sentenced and end up never seeing the light of day again.

This says 44,000 a year https://www.statista.com/statistics...e average,around 9.45 thousand British pounds.

846 a week, by my calculations. I guess that is an average and may be different classes of inmates cost different amounts?