British Rail-Who wants it back

[Diego Napier]

You are very wrong, taxes have contributed precious little to the railway as opposed to the NHS, you ignorance is truly stunning

What is your persistence with introducing other spending heads? Perhaps I should play your perverse game and counter that taxes have contributed far more to the railway than space research. But that would be stupid. The topic discussion is railways, why not stick to it and stop the dissembling obfuscation.

 

[Beach Hut]

As the topic under discussion was rail transport, I also naturally ignored those countries education, social security, defence, housing, statutory sick pay, carers allowance, foreign aid, debt payments, etc. expenditures. Thanks for your insightful closing comment though.

Which means you are benign to understanding this debate, the NHS as good as it is cost this country the most money. Ever wondered why it is listed separately as National Insurance ?

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

For me, nationalisation versus privatisation is the wrong question. The solution favoured by Barry Doe, an independent railway expert, who writes in RAIL magazine is a BR PLC. That would have been my solution, keeping trains, track and signals all together, but introducing private sector investment. BR was virtually run as a business anyway and most years was turning a tidy profit, at least its InterCity and Network SouthEast bits were. It could easily have been privatised as one business. A large part of the Swiss railway network is private - virtually all the central part is run by the Bern-Lotschberg-Simplon Railway, but with their timetables planned in conjunction with the main state operator, SBB, and all tickets valid on any train, apart from a few special trains requiring supplements. Can anyone really argue that British Telecom would have been better still nationalised?

The big fault was to introduce all these franchises, with hundreds of complex contracts, plus a separate track operator, so that the end user is only an indirect customer of theirs. An example is in the North. You have two franchises, Northern Rail and Trans Pennine Express. The two companies run trains over virtually the same routes, though usually TPE's are faster. The Department for Transport had the opportunity, with both franchises ending, to combine them into one, but chose not to. I am a Tory myself and quite happy to state this, but I'm willing to admit they got this totally wrong. Labour could have rectified this, but chose not to.

 

[GT49er]

We have had to replace virtually the whole rolling stock and most of the slam door carriages have been replaced with more health and safety conscious carriages at considerable cost. How do you think the money appeared to pay for this?

So the German railways haven't had to replace old stock?

 

[GT49er]

Which means you are benign to understanding this debate, the NHS as good as it is cost this country the most money. Ever wondered why it is listed separately as National Insurance ?

It isn't.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Well, I imagine that it has been paid for by our taxes. What is the point you're struggling to make?

Part funded through using the annual Government subsidisation? - But isn't that what was being claimed was being used to line the pockets of the private train operators?

As others have said, rail companies only get a short term lease to operate, without that subsidy, why would they invest in the stock and infrastructure on their routes any more than the very least that was urgently required to keep it running? - There would be a similar lack of investment too if under Government control as well , especially under current austerity conditions that exist now.

 

[KingKev]

You are very wrong, taxes have contributed precious little to the railway as opposed to the NHS, you ignorance is truly stunning

That's not a helpful comparison. The NHS is largely free at the point of service provision, so by definition it is majority-funded through taxation / public funds. The privatised railways are collecting (ever-inflating) payment for their services but still taking £4-5bn pa from the Exchequer to cover the difference between cost and dividend requirements vs income.
To have a privatised industry receiving subsidies at this level so long after the sell off, whilst providing truly shocking services in some areas and particularly in the economic hub of the country in the South / South-East, pretty much says to me that the experiment has not been successful.
The railways are a vital part of the infrastructure that underpins the economic health of the UK, where investment in the railways should be aimed at paying back into national coffers on a holistic basis - eg by supporting regional and national economic growth - rather than just in raising ticket income. To have that vital piece of our economic infrastructure in private hands, local or foreign, is a triumph of political dogma over common sense.
That's why I vote 'yes, nationalise'.

I would also nationaLise the majority of utilities. That experiment has also largely failed - most easily seen in power where private industry is looking to the government for the major investment required to ensure that we are not left with a massive power issue in the future, whilst happily trousering good profits and exec bonuses from business models that are far too short-termist for the UK's needs. Add to that the crazy situation where we have Important utilities owned and run by at least one company (EDF) that is effectively owned by a foreign power (& the UK government is still toying with putting our future power needs even more into said company's hands via the proposed nuclear programme)....lunacy, driven by political and economic dogma...utter lunacy.
Vent over - have a nice day.

 

[Igzilla]

That's not a helpful comparison. The NHS is largely free at the point of service provision, so by definition it is majority-funded through taxation / public funds. The privatised railways are collecting (ever-inflating) payment for their services but still taking £4-5bn pa from the Exchequer to cover the difference between cost and dividend requirements vs income.
To have a privatised industry receiving subsidies at this level so long after the sell off, whilst providing truly shocking services in some areas and particularly in the economic hub of the country in the South / South-East, pretty much says to me that the experiment has not been successful.
The railways are a vital part of the infrastructure that underpins the economic health of the UK, where investment in the railways should be aimed at paying back into national coffers on a holistic basis - eg by supporting regional and national economic growth - rather than just in raising ticket income. To have that vital piece of our economic infrastructure in private hands, local or foreign, is a triumph of political dogma over common sense.
That's why I vote 'yes, nationalise'.

I would also nationaLise the majority of utilities. That experiment has also largely failed - most easily seen in power where private industry is looking to the government for the major investment required to ensure that we are not left with a massive power issue in the future, whilst happily trousering good profits and exec bonuses from business models that are far too short-termist for the UK's needs. Add to that the crazy situation where we have Important utilities owned and run by at least one company (EDF) that is effectively owned by a foreign power (& the UK government is still toying with putting our future power needs even more into said company's hands via the proposed nuclear programme)....lunacy, driven by political and economic dogma...utter lunacy.
Vent over - have a nice day.

This.

 

[Landgull]

NO.

 

[GT49er]

That's not a helpful comparison. The NHS is largely free at the point of service provision, so by definition it is majority-funded through taxation / public funds. The privatised railways are collecting (ever-inflating) payment for their services but still taking £4-5bn pa from the Exchequer ................................................ Add to that the crazy situation where we have Important utilities owned and run by at least one company (EDF) that is effectively owned by a foreign power (& the UK government is still toying with putting our future power needs even more into said company's hands via the proposed nuclear programme)....lunacy, driven by political and economic dogma...utter lunacy.
Vent over - have a nice day.

Well said. There's sure to be a few more bleats from the Thatcherites in our midst, but a three to one majority is pretty conclusive.

 

[Ernest]

What was dreamed up by Major in 1992 and what actually happened were 2 different things, a lot of people have made fortunes over the years out of privatising the railways which could have been spent on the infrastructure and other projects. When the rolling stock companies were sold off , another massive rip off that is never mentioned, some guys made massive fortunes out of it. One even bought Nottingham Forest on the back of it. Major harked back to the GWR and other companies like in the 'good old days' of warm beer and cricket that he was so fond of competing with each other but he forgets that the reason BR came into being was all the private railways were basically skint.

Privatising hasn't worked for the passenger only fat cats and shareholders of companies that are on no risk contracts and the minute they look like losing a quid or 2 they walk away and hand back the keys.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

What was dreamed up by Major in 1992 and what actually happened were 2 different things, a lot of people have made fortunes over the years out of privatising the railways which could have been spent on the infrastructure and other projects. When the rolling stock companies were sold off , another massive rip off that is never mentioned, some guys made massive fortunes out of it. One even bought Nottingham Forest on the back of it. Major harked back to the GWR and other companies like in the 'good old days' of warm beer and cricket that he was so fond of competing with each other but he forgets that the reason BR came into being was all the private railways were basically skint.

Privatising hasn't worked for the passenger only fat cats and shareholders of companies that are on no risk contracts and the minute they look like losing a quid or 2 they walk away and hand back the keys.

This

 

[rippleman]

The British Rail buffet car. A community within a community. Where the buffet man would cook you up a fresh bacon sarnie.

Happy days!

 

[Hampster Gull]

I can only imagine that if you think that the railways today aren't a shambles compared to bygone days, you clearly don't use them.

Enough, sometimes for work and sometimes for leisure. I would never vote to go back to those days. The world has moved on at pace and yet some here hanker for the prehistoric days. We would be a laughing stock if we had the BR of the 70s and 80s opeating today.

 

[Hampster Gull]

This

This is quite sweet, HT and Ernest backing each other up. Its like the good old days building up to the last election

 

[pastafarian]

The German railway is state owned. Their fares are way lower than the UK's. What more do you need to know?

whats the input of the state in monetary terms?
do the Germans generally consider this to be worthwhile.

How often to the state railways go on strike?

and mostly because i cant be arsed to communicate myself across a german ticketing website in case of the off chance i might order Frieda for "shower" lessons can you give me a comparative fare distance wise say london brighton over there.

i would be interested in the comparative savings

 

[pastafarian]

The British Rail buffet car. A community within a community. Where the buffet man would cook you up a fresh bacon sarnie.

Happy days!

i do miss that i have to agree,the bacon sandwiches somehow tasted wonderful.

i mostly miss it though because it was a great scam,my old man used to supply the buffet guys with cut price trade bacon which they would take into work with their own bread, make up and sell the sarnies and pocket the money(remember the tills?) simply report back with the left over official bacon and bread and corresponding cash and say what a slow day it had been.

who says capitalism doesnt work?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

whats the input of the state in monetary terms?
do the Germans generally consider this to be worthwhile.

How often to the state railways go on strike?

and mostly because i cant be arsed to communicate myself across a german ticketing website in case of the off chance i might order Frieda for "shower" lessons can you give me a comparative fare distance wise say london brighton over there.

i would be interested in the comparative savings

I don't know the amount the state puts in as it's complicated by the fact DB makes a profit. But I don't think the German is overly bothered by this as public transport is generally supported by everyone.

A quick simple comparison for Brighton to London is the annual season ticket price. I believe it's around 4k in the UK? For the same price in euros (approx £2900) you get a BahnCard 100 which "offers 12 months travel on all DB services."

Yes, that's right ALL. Ie you can travel absolutely anywhere at anytime in Germany and not just "Brighton to London." for much much less.

I recently went to Grafenheinichen which is just over an hour away and comparable to your Brighton London comparator. I went by ICE which is the fancy inter-city train and this was just over €30 for a period return.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Enough, sometimes for work and sometimes for leisure. I would never vote to go back to those days. The world has moved on at pace and yet some here hanker for the prehistoric days. We would be a laughing stock if we had the BR of the 70s and 80s opeating today.

I guess it says a lot about the current unreliable, expensive, mind-bendingly difficult to use chaos which masquerades as a rail service that many hanker for BR then.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I guess it says a lot about the current unreliable, expensive, mind-bendingly difficult to use chaos which masquerades as a rail service that many hanker for BR then.

Yes, what we have now isnt good, i would much prefer something better. I just dont see BR as the future!