Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
That is a problem, and a solution needs to be found to improve this figure.
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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
cjd
Well-known member
I find it hard to disagree with anything you have posted.....and it is bloody annoying.
However, I am old now and don't relish what I believe will be financial turmoil over the next 0 - 10 years while new trade agreements are reached etc etc etc. if we leave. I suspect the majority of our population has only ever known being in the European Union. I am more than old enough to remember what it was like being frequently told "Non" by General de Gaulle. It has taken a long, long time for me, but I do feel 'European' now.
What I would like to see/happen is the UK to remain, but a groundswell of opinion of the major players (France, Germany, Spain etc) to take a long hard look at where it is going and start accommodating and understanding that integration in Europe can only go so far in a relatively short space of time. There are recent statistics showing the disaffection of the bureaucrats in Brussels.....particularly high in France.
If we remain, then hopefully (and I know that 'hopefully' isn't ideal ) we can steady and stop this European juggernaut going so fast......and if we cannot stop it, then we leave in the future.
If we leave now....we cannot ever just walk back in.
Just my opinion......no particularly strong facts either way.
- Apr 13, 2015
- 3,756
...and on the other side... snotty nosed 18 year olds shouting about this vote being relevant for their future... at 53 I feel insulted that apparently I have no future and thus no relevance in this debate.
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- Apr 13, 2015
- 3,756
As I have said before, what was stopping them registering in the weeks before, I am assuming this issue was important enough to them for that to happen...or was drinking the last £2 a pint Strongbow offerings in the student union bar too much to resist first?It's because it was impossible to register during the last hours of the registration period. That isn't right and not the fault of the voters.
Besides, what's not to like about more people being able to vote ?
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Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
They were allowed to register anytime within the registration period, no bonus points for doing it early.
Personal freedom, live and let live and all that.
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
Well I am only 4 years behind you, I am sad you feel like you have no future, the sex pistols did tell us this about 40 years ago. Not sure how shouting and insulting people helps in any way - perhaps gets some of the sadness out.
Theres a lot of positive things happening and we shouldn't deprive either 18 year olds or 53 year olds getting involved. If nothing else the Albion are going for it again next season that will unite us all (well most).
Albumen
Don't wait for me!
Unless this is a piss take,
Let the younger voters win, they'll have to put up with this shite.
EdIT: Oops just read Heathgate's post. Sorry old man!
Two Professors
Two Mad Professors
It has been explained often enough on here and elsewhere that even the thickest economist should understand it by now,but one last try.
If you divide the size of an economy only by the number of people,you get a misleadingly large figure,because you have missed firms out of the equation.If you then go on to divide that figure by households,not individuals,you get a even larger spurious number,in this case the magical £4300 of Remainers wet dreams.Osborne might look stupid,but he knows if he repeats a lie often enough,people will start to believe it.
Two Professors
Two Mad Professors
Self-assessment still in fashion,I see!
Albumen
Don't wait for me!
Hey, that's me you're talking about.
Nothing was stopping them voting "weeks before". But something was stopping them voting hours before.
Also, which bit of "you have until" do you not understand?
sten_super
Brain Surgeon
Sorry, but no-one I'm aware of has been complaining about the use of a 'per household' measure. It's much better to use that or a 'per head' measure than an absolute figure (particularly when talking about monetary figures) because it makes them relatable.
The problem with the £4,300 figure is that it was a measure of gross value added, rather than income. Gross value added combines wages with profits, and since a substantial proportion of profits end up with foreign investors, the effect on the income of UK households is actually quite a bit lower - from memory I think the figure was £2,700 from the same Treasury analysis.
The problem (and it's the same with Vote Leave's £350m figure) is that debating the detail makes it look like i) you're accepting the underlying point and ii) it keeps the debate on the issue.
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
Well all over the top of the blues, but the ol GCSE or lower gets me a slight hint of red (oh and me age), sounds like a classic Albion kit
The good news is that you (and I - also 53) have one vote each, just the same as any 18 year old. But logically this vote IS more important for them.....they will have to live all their adult lives with the consequences, whereas we probably only have another 30 years or so to go.
After hearing a load of tosh today from the "Brexit" camp on Radio 4 this morning , and then finding that Peacehaven Town Council premises have effectively been taken over by UKIP to publicise "Brexit", I have swung back to the "Remain" camp.
Peacehaven still publicises itself on the roadside as being "Twinned" with a town in France and in Germany. I understand that both of these links are defunct. Maybe instead they should twin with:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=trumptown_usa
Peacehaven still publicises itself on the roadside as being "Twinned" with a town in France and in Germany. I understand that both of these links are defunct. Maybe instead they should twin with:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=trumptown_usa
Incidentally, I see the Ladbrokes barometer has moved from 32/68 in favour of Remain to 26/74 today. I assume this must be on the back of (a) the volume of younger people registering to vote, and (b) the defection of Sarah Wollaston (and the focus on the £350m/week "lie").
My mum is 86 and, although leaning towards Leave, has decided not to vote as she feels that she won't have to live with the long-term consequences. I feel that's very honest of her
Hard-hitting article in today's FT - worth a read if you have a few minutes this lunchtime....
Flick through the campaign material of the Brexiters fighting Britain’s referendum and you will find a video of a brawl in the Ankara parliament. Next, a poster with an image of a UK passport declaring that “Turkey (population 76m) is joining the EU”. Then statistics about Turkey’s high birth rate; and a warning that Britain’s National Health Service will soon be swamped by expectant Turkish mothers. After this follows the assertion — unsubstantiated, of course — that Turkey has higher levels of criminality and gangsterism; and a map showing that Ankara’s supposedly imminent accession will extend Europe’s external frontier to war-ravaged Syria. None of this needs decoding. The dog whistle has made way for the klaxon. EU membership talks with Turkey, we are to understand, will soon see Britain overrun by millions of (Muslim) Turks — most of them thugs or welfare scroungers. In the US, the Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump says all Muslims must be treated as suspect. The Tory Brexit campaign led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove has chosen to cast the entire Turkish nation as the enemy. Mr Trump plans to ban Muslims from entering the US. Britain’s response to the Turkish “threat”, the Brexiters say, should be to quit the EU and pull up the drawbridge across the Channel.
There was always a danger that the referendum campaign would bleed into xenophobia. The UK Independence party, led by Nigel Farage, has never bothered itself with policing the boundary between legitimate debate about immigration and straightforward racism. The surprising thing has been the enthusiasm of the Conservative-led Vote Leave campaign, which once presented itself as the reasoned face of Euroscepticism, in marching on to Ukip’s nativist territory. Mr Johnson is a former mayor of London, the most cosmopolitan of the world’s great cities, whose all-consuming ambition is to replace David Cameron as prime minister. Mr Gove is the minister responsible for oversight of the rule of law in Mr Cameron’s cabinet. Both had previously presented themselves as social liberals. Mr Johnson had even boasted of his family’s Turkish ancestry — his paternal great-grandfather went by the name Ali Kemal Bey — and not so long ago he was a vociferous supporter of Turkey’s EU entry.
Now, he represents the citizens of his ancestral home as a civilisational threat. As the Leave campaign puts it, “Murderers, terrorists and kidnappers from countries like Turkey could flock to Britain if it remains in the European Union”. As repugnant as they are, Mr Trump’s views on Islam are directly stated. Mr Johnson lets the Islamophobia hang in the air. The obvious riposte is that there is no prospect of Turkey joining the EU in the foreseeable future. Mr Cameron has made just this point. Ankara first applied to join during the 1960s and opened talks with Brussels in 2005. During the past decade only one of 35 accession chapters has been completed. Each of the existing EU states holds a veto and any decision would be subject to referendums in several that are overtly hostile to Turkey’s accession. Even if, inexplicably, all those hurdles were somehow surmounted, entry would be followed by lengthy transitional arrangements. We are talking, if it ever happens, several decades from now.
Yet none of this deters Messrs Johnson and Gove from insisting, absurdly, that Turkey could be a full EU member by 2020. The Brexiters operate outside anything as old-fashioned as a framework of truth. Fiercely anti-intellectual, and borrowing heavily from Mr Trump, they judge that rational argument is best met with shameless mendacity. They have exploited, it is fair to say, the cynicism of successive British governments in dealings with Turkey. Mr Cameron is not the first prime minister to seek commercial and political credit in Ankara by publicly backing EU entry in the certain knowledge that others will ensure it does not happen. Germany’s chancellor Angela Merkel has embraced the same unattractive realpolitik in striking a deal with Ankara to halt the flow of Syrian refugees.
The sharp authoritarian turn of president Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s government has dismayed, meanwhile, the staunchest supporters of Turkey’s eventual EU accession. The avowed democrat of a decade or so ago now resides in a palace fit for Louis XIV and wants to dispense with all constraints on his personal power — another reason why EU entry has receded from view. The Outs, though, are not directing their fire at Mr Erdogan. Their target is the Turkish people. The crude calculation is that demonising Turks adds a useful xenophobic edge to a populist campaign against the Brussels-backing elites. The aim is to harden support for the anti-EU cause among working-class voters marginalised by globalisation. Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far-right National Front and an avowed supporter of Brexit, has done much the same in France.
The painful irony is that in “playing the Turkish card” the Outs debauch the democracy they say they want to rescue from the clutches of the EU. By stoking prejudice against Turks in particular and Muslims in general, they throw away the liberal tolerance that has long defined Britishness. Mr Johnson may think that this is the way to win the referendum and then claim the keys to 10 Downing Street. But at what price?
Flick through the campaign material of the Brexiters fighting Britain’s referendum and you will find a video of a brawl in the Ankara parliament. Next, a poster with an image of a UK passport declaring that “Turkey (population 76m) is joining the EU”. Then statistics about Turkey’s high birth rate; and a warning that Britain’s National Health Service will soon be swamped by expectant Turkish mothers. After this follows the assertion — unsubstantiated, of course — that Turkey has higher levels of criminality and gangsterism; and a map showing that Ankara’s supposedly imminent accession will extend Europe’s external frontier to war-ravaged Syria. None of this needs decoding. The dog whistle has made way for the klaxon. EU membership talks with Turkey, we are to understand, will soon see Britain overrun by millions of (Muslim) Turks — most of them thugs or welfare scroungers. In the US, the Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump says all Muslims must be treated as suspect. The Tory Brexit campaign led by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove has chosen to cast the entire Turkish nation as the enemy. Mr Trump plans to ban Muslims from entering the US. Britain’s response to the Turkish “threat”, the Brexiters say, should be to quit the EU and pull up the drawbridge across the Channel.
There was always a danger that the referendum campaign would bleed into xenophobia. The UK Independence party, led by Nigel Farage, has never bothered itself with policing the boundary between legitimate debate about immigration and straightforward racism. The surprising thing has been the enthusiasm of the Conservative-led Vote Leave campaign, which once presented itself as the reasoned face of Euroscepticism, in marching on to Ukip’s nativist territory. Mr Johnson is a former mayor of London, the most cosmopolitan of the world’s great cities, whose all-consuming ambition is to replace David Cameron as prime minister. Mr Gove is the minister responsible for oversight of the rule of law in Mr Cameron’s cabinet. Both had previously presented themselves as social liberals. Mr Johnson had even boasted of his family’s Turkish ancestry — his paternal great-grandfather went by the name Ali Kemal Bey — and not so long ago he was a vociferous supporter of Turkey’s EU entry.
Now, he represents the citizens of his ancestral home as a civilisational threat. As the Leave campaign puts it, “Murderers, terrorists and kidnappers from countries like Turkey could flock to Britain if it remains in the European Union”. As repugnant as they are, Mr Trump’s views on Islam are directly stated. Mr Johnson lets the Islamophobia hang in the air. The obvious riposte is that there is no prospect of Turkey joining the EU in the foreseeable future. Mr Cameron has made just this point. Ankara first applied to join during the 1960s and opened talks with Brussels in 2005. During the past decade only one of 35 accession chapters has been completed. Each of the existing EU states holds a veto and any decision would be subject to referendums in several that are overtly hostile to Turkey’s accession. Even if, inexplicably, all those hurdles were somehow surmounted, entry would be followed by lengthy transitional arrangements. We are talking, if it ever happens, several decades from now.
Yet none of this deters Messrs Johnson and Gove from insisting, absurdly, that Turkey could be a full EU member by 2020. The Brexiters operate outside anything as old-fashioned as a framework of truth. Fiercely anti-intellectual, and borrowing heavily from Mr Trump, they judge that rational argument is best met with shameless mendacity. They have exploited, it is fair to say, the cynicism of successive British governments in dealings with Turkey. Mr Cameron is not the first prime minister to seek commercial and political credit in Ankara by publicly backing EU entry in the certain knowledge that others will ensure it does not happen. Germany’s chancellor Angela Merkel has embraced the same unattractive realpolitik in striking a deal with Ankara to halt the flow of Syrian refugees.
The sharp authoritarian turn of president Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s government has dismayed, meanwhile, the staunchest supporters of Turkey’s eventual EU accession. The avowed democrat of a decade or so ago now resides in a palace fit for Louis XIV and wants to dispense with all constraints on his personal power — another reason why EU entry has receded from view. The Outs, though, are not directing their fire at Mr Erdogan. Their target is the Turkish people. The crude calculation is that demonising Turks adds a useful xenophobic edge to a populist campaign against the Brussels-backing elites. The aim is to harden support for the anti-EU cause among working-class voters marginalised by globalisation. Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far-right National Front and an avowed supporter of Brexit, has done much the same in France.
The painful irony is that in “playing the Turkish card” the Outs debauch the democracy they say they want to rescue from the clutches of the EU. By stoking prejudice against Turks in particular and Muslims in general, they throw away the liberal tolerance that has long defined Britishness. Mr Johnson may think that this is the way to win the referendum and then claim the keys to 10 Downing Street. But at what price?
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
Bless, not sure its the best reason as it may affect her for 15 years plus hopefully and its about everyone having a say however small that is