[Politics] Brexit

[El Presidente]

which is the only thing they can do.
by every measure of sensible democracy the result is "morally" binding.

The option of simply ignoring it would have had disastrous consequences in this country.
My pitchfork is polished and will stay easily accessible in the corner of the shed should it ever be required.

I agree entirely that the government has done the correct thing.

But there's no morality in politics, just look at the behaviour of Gove et al after the result, and Labour MP's in relation to Corbyn.

 

[pastafarian]

I agree entirely that the government has done the correct thing.

But there's no morality in politics, just look at the behaviour of Gove et al after the result, and Labour MP's in relation to Corbyn.

It would seem then that doing the right thing,acknowledging the result and leaving the EU is a "moral" breath of fresh air.......in more ways than one.

 

[The Rivet]

This isn't a rant, it is an observation.

Europe

Scandinavia arson epidemic.
Multiple sexual and violent instances in Germany alone.
Huge risk of terrorism in France, Belgium, Germany and of course Spain.
Visegrad countries rebelling against EU commission dominance and 'quotas'.
The potential of yet another 3rd tier economy being admitted to the EU. Another financial drain.
Turkey looming with potential visa 'rights'.
Italian and Greek banks and economy buggered. Spain and Portugal catching up with them.
Finally France. Pitiful growth, no dynamic leadership. Economy nearly shot. LePen rising like a nationalist demon harpie.
The Glorious admirable EU!

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

This isn't a rant, it is an observation.

Europe

Scandinavia arson epidemic.
Multiple sexual and violent instances in Germany alone.
Huge risk of terrorism in France, Belgium, Germany and of course Spain.
Visegrad countries rebelling against EU commission dominance and 'quotas'.
The potential of yet another 3rd tier economy being admitted to the EU. Another financial drain.
Turkey looming with potential visa 'rights'.
Italian and Greek banks and economy buggered. Spain and Portugal catching up with them.
Finally France. Pitiful growth, no dynamic leadership. Economy nearly shot. LePen rising like a nationalist demon harpie.
The Glorious admirable EU!

You forgot the poor, suffering Greek pensioners who were tear gassed today:

Pensioners tear gassed at Greek rally http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37544416

It seems that europhiles can't see any wrong in the EU, but the evidence is blatant. Thank God we voted sensibly.

 

[The Rivet]

Oh well, no more discussion Must go to bed like the remainers. Work hard for me tomorrow.

 

[El Presidente]

You forgot the poor, suffering Greek pensioners who were tear gassed today:

Pensioners tear gassed at Greek rally http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37544416

It seems that europhiles can't see any wrong in the EU, but the evidence is blatant. Thank God we voted sensibly.

I'm sure I'm being a bit dim here, but the two quotes in the article are:

"Let the rich pay for the crisis", which appears to be targeting the rich, who through the inefficiency of the Greek tax system evade tax at will

http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-reason-greece-has-a-massive-tax-evasion-problem-2015-2

and "This government are the biggest liars of all the others put together" which is a criticism of the democratically elected Greek government.

There's not a single reference to the EU.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm sure I'm being a bit dim here, but the two quotes in the article are:

"Let the rich pay for the crisis", which appears to be targeting the rich, who through the inefficiency of the Greek tax system evade tax at will

http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-reason-greece-has-a-massive-tax-evasion-problem-2015-2

and "This government are the biggest liars of all the others put together" which is a criticism of the democratically elected Greek government.

There's not a single reference to the EU.

That is correct. However, Greece is a mess, partly because successive governments were corrupt and partly because German and French (primarily) governments were willing to overlook that, break their own rules in the stability pact and allow Greece to become a fully paid up member of the Euro. The fact that Germany is benefiting from lending Greece money to pay back it's debts whilst Greece's debts accrue, really takes the biscuit.

Coherent argument is probably the last thing on the pensioners minds when protesting about 50 losses or whatever.

 

[dazzer6666]

Fees vary from country to country but under EU legislation you cannot charge students from other EU countries more than you charge domestic students.

In the UK the rules are however daft. In Wales the fees are £9,000 a year but Welsh students can get a grant of up to £5,100 as a contribution. In Scotland the fees for £1,870 a year for Scottish (and non English) EU students. English students have to pay £9,000 which is discriminatory and unfair, especially as most Scottish degrees take four years to complete compared to three in England.

True. Majority of Scottish kids start their degrees a year earlier though (at 17) after Highers. My eldest is at Edinburgh - happily she managed to avoid the fees as she is doing a nursing degree, and she also gets a fairly substantial bursary towards accommodation costs etc - in England there would be no fees - yet - they are talking about changing this though - but little or no bursary (majority of Students are also Scottish - lots seem to get unconditional offers, unlike anyone English wanting to go there).

 

[beorhthelm]

Fees vary from country to country but under EU legislation you cannot charge students from other EU countries more than you charge domestic students.

In the UK the rules are however daft. In Wales the fees are £9,000 a year but Welsh students can get a grant of up to £5,100 as a contribution. In Scotland the fees for £1,870 a year for Scottish (and non English) EU students. English students have to pay £9,000 which is discriminatory and unfair, especially as most Scottish degrees take four years to complete compared to three in England.

how on earth have they legally got away with that? presumably they've allowed EU students at low rates as an acknowledgment it would otherwise discriminate non-Scottish (or Welsh), upsetting the EU rules.

 

[dazzer6666]

The definitive EU Referendum thread

how on earth have they legally got away with that? presumably they've allowed EU students at low rates as an acknowledgment it would otherwise discriminate non-Scottish (or Welsh), upsetting the EU rules.

No idea but I guess the devolved parliament have changed control of Uni fees. Welsh students are treated the same as English by the Scots, but can claim part of the funding back from the Welsh administration.

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/university-tuition-fees/going-to-university-in-scotland/

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

That is correct. However, Greece is a mess, partly because successive governments were corrupt and partly because German and French (primarily) governments were willing to overlook that, break their own rules in the stability pact and allow Greece to become a fully paid up member of the Euro. The fact that Germany is benefiting from lending Greece money to pay back it's debts whilst Greece's debts accrue, really takes the biscuit.

Coherent argument is probably the last thing on the pensioners minds when protesting about 50 losses or whatever.

All of this plus the EU 'fix' for the problem of further austerity. Greece continues to suffer from having an exchange rate (the EU) that is too strong for its economy while Germany benefits from that same exhange rate being too weak for its economy. There is no system of fiscal flows which would help alleviate this problem and instead Germany has the cheek to blame Greece for
being feckless.

 

[El Presidente]

how on earth have they legally got away with that? presumably they've allowed EU students at low rates as an acknowledgment it would otherwise discriminate non-Scottish (or Welsh), upsetting the EU rules.

Under EU legislation you cannot discriminate between states. So a UK university must charge the same to a Spanish student as an English student and a Dutch Uni charge the same to a UK student as a Dutch student.

Scotland and England are not separate states though, they are nations within a state (the UK). Discrimination within a state is permissible, and the SNP government has applied this rule.

 

[pastafarian]

Fees vary from country to country but under EU legislation you cannot charge students from other EU countries more than you charge domestic students.

In the UK the rules are however daft. In Wales the fees are £9,000 a year but Welsh students can get a grant of up to £5,100 as a contribution. In Scotland the fees for £1,870 a year for Scottish (and non English) EU students. English students have to pay £9,000 which is discriminatory and unfair, especially as most Scottish degrees take four years to complete compared to three in England.

some help here please.
I would like to understand more how this works with the regard to erasmus and not sure how it works, but ive read there are now 37 or 38 countries now part of the EU Erasmus scheme for students going abroad, i think Russia was one of the most recent to join.
Do these non EU countries who have joined the scheme enjoy the same benefits as EU countries or are there extra hurdles for them regarding tuition fee waivers, grants etc and vice versa or if you join are you all subject to the same rules and maybe benefits?

Ive had a direct conversation with a professor in Switzerland who is convinced that after leaving The EU we and The Eu will negotiate to remain within the programme for the benefit of our and European students, a sector he contends doesnt need to be dragged into the political arena. He cant see any benefit for the EU to punish its own youngsters by throwing us out of the programme.

Is this a realistic view?

 

[pastafarian]

The problem with many Brexiteers is that you don't look at the whole picture. UK students can study in many EU countries for very little (in some countries it's free). In doing so they will be significantly subsidised by local tax-payers. The whole point of the EU is that it's a club which aims to provide a better outcome for all. The problem is that on this side of the Channel we just don't seem to be able to cope with that. As a result, we come across as mean-spirited and even xenophobic. I'm fed up with this whole "Europe = Bad, Britain = Good" rhetoric that we keep being fed. We are gradually eroding the goodwill which much of the rest of the world had for us. It's thoroughly, thoroughly depressing.

But Britain is not mean spirited or xenophobic,therefore these views you have are unrealistic and false. Its as simple as that. You have simply formed this opinion since we have decided to leave the club as you cant comprehend or dont want to realise the result.
Britain is a Great country, we have much to be proud of and much for people to aspire to and wish to belong to. If it really was mean spirited and xenophobic no one would want to come here.

Don't worry - I will enjoy myself...but not as much as I would have done. Fortunately I'm reasonably well off, so won't suffer the negative impact of Brexit that many will do. Also, virtually everyone I know voted Remain, so we can console ourselves together! However, I can't deny that it's tough knowing that readers of the Daily Mail and Daily Express are on the winning side...

its very lazy and crass to suggest this was a mail/express victory.
there will be readers of the guardian, independent and whatever journal the Socialist Workers Party are putting out nowadays that are on the winning side as well. Likewise there are readers of all these and the Mail and Express who now find themselves on the losing side.
One day you might learn this vote transcended political and social norm allegiances , you can then grow to accept the result for what it was and not according to your pre defined prejudice.
You may find yourself after this realisation in a happier place.

 

[El Presidente]

some help here please.
I would like to understand more how this works with the regard to erasmus and not sure how it works, but ive read there are now 37 or 38 countries now part of the EU Erasmus scheme for students going abroad, i think Russia was one of the most recent to join.
Do these non EU countries who have joined the scheme enjoy the same benefits as EU countries or are there extra hurdles for them regarding tuition fee waivers, grants etc and vice versa or if you join are you all subject to the same rules and maybe benefits?

Ive had a direct conversation with a professor in Switzerland who is convinced that after leaving The EU we and The Eu will negotiate to remain within the programme for the benefit of our and European students, a sector he contends doesnt need to be dragged into the political arena. He cant see any benefit for the EU to punish its own youngsters by throwing us out of the programme.

Is this a realistic view?

It's certainly the desire of UK HE institutions to remain within Erasmus, the university sector is a great believer in exchange programs as it gives an opportunity to compare notes and ideas.

It would be foolish to withdraw from the scheme, the only reason for doing so would be to placate the editorial columns of the red tops who are focused on migration numbers.

We've spoken to senior government ministers and suggested that students are excluded from the migration numbers. The reply was "we can't do that, Dacre (Daily Mail editor) will crucify us for massaging the figures"

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Don't worry - I will enjoy myself...but not as much as I would have done. Fortunately I'm reasonably well off, so won't suffer the negative impact of Brexit that many will do. Also, virtually everyone I know voted Remain, so we can console ourselves together! However, I can't deny that it's tough knowing that readers of the Daily Mail and Daily Express are on the winning side...

My mum reads the Daily Express and she voted Remain. I will pass on your comment to her as it will raise a chuckle.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

We've spoken to senior government ministers and suggested that students are excluded from the migration numbers. The reply was "we can't do that, Dacre (Daily Mail editor) will crucify us for massaging the figures"

Why would student numbers affect net migration numbers ? Wouldn't you expect one years arrivals to replace the departure of final year students ? If not, then presumably it's a part of a deliberate policy of expanding HE because of its success. This will have knock on implications for society though and I do think it right that we as a society are allowed to know the numbers involved.

 

[pastafarian]

It's certainly the desire of UK HE institutions to remain within Erasmus, the university sector is a great believer in exchange programs as it gives an opportunity to compare notes and ideas.

It would be foolish to withdraw from the scheme, the only reason for doing so would be to placate the editorial columns of the red tops who are focused on migration numbers.

We've spoken to senior government ministers and suggested that students are excluded from the migration numbers. The reply was "we can't do that, Dacre (Daily Mail editor) will crucify us for massaging the figures"

forgetting the massaging of immigration figures( different topic )
has it really been portrayed that we would wish to leave the scheme at all? Has anyone actually really suggested we leave? I find that a bizarre thing we are considering it .....personally i would have thought we would like to remain in it......we are after all coming from the angle we want all the cake etc etc

any more info about non eu members of erasmus and what its like to be in the scheme but not in the EU?

 

[ManOfSussex]

forgetting the massaging of immigration figures( different topic )
has it really been portrayed that we would wish to leave the scheme at all? Has anyone actually really suggested we leave? I find that a bizarre thing we are considering it .....personally i would have thought we would like to remain in it......we are after all coming from the angle we want all the cake etc etc

any more info about non eu members of erasmus and what its like to be in the scheme but not in the EU?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme

https://www.erasmusplus.org.uk/higher-education-funding

https://www.erasmusplus.org.uk/participating-countries

I just has a cursory glance at these links. It seems Switzerland are now suspended from the programme following their immigration vote. Non EU participants are listed as:

Macedonia
Iceland
Norway
Liechtenstein
Turkey

 

[El Presidente]

forgetting the massaging of immigration figures( different topic )
has it really been portrayed that we would wish to leave the scheme at all? Has anyone actually really suggested we leave? I find that a bizarre thing we are considering it .....personally i would have thought we would like to remain in it......we are after all coming from the angle we want all the cake etc etc

any more info about non eu members of erasmus and what its like to be in the scheme but not in the EU?

David Davis has refused to guarantee the scheme.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/uk-students-may-be-excluded-from-erasmus-scheme_uk_579b18abe4b0f42daa4a0334

As for non-EU countries, Erasmus applies to the likes of Norway, Iceland, Turkey etc, and then there is Erasmus+ which applies to some ( but not all) courses and involves the likes of Albania, Syria, Russia, Israel etc.