[Politics] Brexit

[jaghebby]

Broadly agree, at least its our government making the choices and if we don't like them we have a direct democratic way of holding them to account.

The thing is it will be a negotiation and so many Brexiteers seem to think we will be deciding the outcome! But it wont be the British government deciding it will more than likely be the rest of Europe deciding what it will eventually look like so we wont be in control!

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Labour have set out their bottom line for voting in favour of A50.

- UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.
- No watering down of EU workplace rights.
- Guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment.
- Pledges on Britain picking up the tab for any EU capital investment lost by Brexit

Seems a reasonable line to take but I can see a GE in the offing if the Government lose the Supreme Court case and May gets wobbly about back bench rebels (and assuming she won't/can't guarantee access to the single market).

 

[Soulman]

Nice edit to remove reference to Guyanan which Seaford caught.

Being Guyana-born she is from the Commonwealth, like 10% of the British army. She grew up here and lives here permanently. She is a successful British woman.

For the record, Mr Dos Santos is British. Mishcon de Reya was founded by British Second World War soldier Victor Mishcon, in Brixton.

Although the right wing press like to use these names because they sound like oribble foreigners.

What has your reply gotto do with the the post I put up.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It may have been a majority of the people that voted - but its definitely not the majority of people or rather the electorate. Those that did'nt vote and those that voted remain are the majority!

Exercise your right to vote or forgo your right to help decide the countries future. Or .. those that didn't vote and those that voted leave are the majority!!

The thing is it will be a negotiation and so many Brexiteers seem to think we will be deciding the outcome! But it wont be the British government deciding it will more than likely be the rest of Europe deciding what it will eventually look like so we wont be in control!

Hard/Real Brexit = we are in control sadly so many Remainers seem to think we will even get an option of 'soft' Brexit and should lay all our cards face up pre negotiation ....

 

[pastafarian]

Unfortunately what the Brexiteers dont seem to underestand is that this is likely to be the first of many challenges to the process of Brexit resulting in increasing delays and the emergence of a much clearer picture of the real mess they have committed this country to and culminating in either a final vote in parliament which will completely reject the negotiated package or a further referendum if parliament dont have the bottle to take the decision themselves which will throw out the deal once and forever.

Im afraid chap you wont get what you hope for and you and your thumbs up chums will be in for a bit of a nasty shock later on.

Even if parliament vote to reject the final negotiated package we will still be leaving just not according to the "rejected" package.

Article 50 is a one way ticket to leaving the EU,
Once notice is given it cant be withdrawn and the end game of leaving the EU is inevitable.

This is why the likes of Clegg,Soubry and Lammy are determined to throw spanners in the works now,delay the outcome and give enough time for the invented post referendum "soft" brexit approach (which is code for NO Brexit) to be pushed as a new option. They are fully aware once notice is given its game over......in that we are leaving.

 

[pastafarian]

The Brexiteers opposition to and utter lack of comprehension of this parliamentary decision does, at least, illustrate again that the Brexiters didn't care about anything other than "getting foreigner out". Sad, in every sense.

Yup. The Right rises as the government shifts the blame from white men in suits to brown people in boats. Leave voters bought into it unfortunately.

It would be a bit of a start before accusing others of lack of comprehension if you realised yourself that this decision was one of the judiciary and not a parliamentary decision as you think it is.

Your continuing bigoted singular view that all remainers simply want foreigners out and is a right wing movement that wants to stop brown people entering the country shows how clearly uninformed you were on the whole Brexit debate.You have not rectified that situation post vote either.

By claiming this as truth you do a great disservice to the vast majority of remainers who didnt believe all leavers were about getting rid of foreigners.The vast majority of remainers debated a wide range of issues, they had concerns about leaving from many different angles and perspectives.
They had valid arguments and viewpoints on the implications of leaving, they knew it wasnt a singular issue and you still come out with this crock of crap it was all about foreigners and brown people.
Im fairly certain you dont speak for the majority of remainers and your views are not widely held amongst remainers, this is just a vocal tiny minority viewpoint spurred on by a perverse intention to twist what the refendum debate was about..


In conclusion grow up.

 

[pastafarian]

It may have been a majority of the people that voted - but its definitely not the majority of people or rather the electorate. Those that did'nt vote and those that voted remain are the majority!

This is an odd way to attribute non voters, in that case its equally true to say
Those that did'nt vote and those that voted leave are the bigger majority!.....which is equally odd.

The thing is it will be a negotiation and so many Brexiteers seem to think we will be deciding the outcome! But it wont be the British government deciding it will more than likely be the rest of Europe deciding what it will eventually look like so we wont be in control!

Actually this is wrong brexiters dont think this at all, read the thread again. Brexiters have been banging on how there are two sides to the negotiations, brexiters certainly believe there are strong points for negotiating common ground but lets be in no uncertain terms here. The EU can simply say no.

All brexiters realise this and its why many have been arguing that people insisting the UK government lays out its demands now is pointless. It means nothing if the EU eventually says no anyway.......why give them the upper hand? Unless of course thats what you want

Why are the remainers not demanding the EU lays out its terms and strategy now before negotiations,......because its stupid thats why

 

[pastafarian]

Labour have set out their bottom line for voting in favour of A50.

- UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.
- No watering down of EU workplace rights.
- Guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment.
- Pledges on Britain picking up the tab for any EU capital investment lost by Brexit

Seems a reasonable line to take but I can see a GE in the offing if the Government lose the Supreme Court case and May gets wobbly about back bench rebels (and assuming she won't/can't guarantee access to the single market).

have Labour offered a further definition or clarification of this statement or just left it at that?

Every country unless under a trade emargo has access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.

Its surprising this still hasnt sunk in to so many people. I wonder if its a deliberate ploy by selling this fear fake narrative.


Do Labour realise there are two sides in this negotiation?

 

[The Clamp]

I think we'll have to disagree. I think any governments job is to act in the best interest of the people. The referendum has given them a mandate of some sorts. That is based on an undefined concept of leaving the EU.

It really doesn't matter what you say "Leave" means, or if ten of your mates agree with that definition. If it's not in the best interests of the nation as a whole, then that shouldn't be the course the government takes.

I personally would have preferred a referendum that had a variety of options regarding things like free movement of people, single market etc. That way the expectations put on parliament would have been clearer. But we didn't, instead we have this stupid mess.

Anyway Sidwells goal was magic.

Champion post. And what makes it better is you are 100% correct.

 

[The Clamp]

Agreed not ignored but they don't get to dictate/decide on the terms of our exit.

Oof. Very, very dangerous rhetoric. We will need the best minds on this, as has been clearly demonstrated those minds do not reside in the Leave camp. Remainers are still UK citizens, our voice and opinion still counts, we didn't lose our democratic rights just because of the referendum result. Your way of thinking is going to get this country into deep economic, political and social strife. Think on.

 

[The Clamp]

Im afraid chap you wont get what you hope for and you and your thumbs up chums will be in for a bit of a nasty shock later on.

Even if parliament vote to reject the final negotiated package we will still be leaving just not according to the "rejected" package.

Article 50 is a one way ticket to leaving the EU,
Once notice is given it cant be withdrawn and the end game of leaving the EU is inevitable.

This is why the likes of Clegg,Soubry and Lammy are determined to throw spanners in the works now,delay the outcome and give enough time for the invented post referendum "soft" brexit approach (which is code for NO Brexit) to be pushed as a new option. They are fully aware once notice is given its game over......in that we are leaving.

I've been ignoring your drivel of late but that one I'm afraid, deserves a retort because it is simply incorrect. Brexit can be halted after A50 is triggered. But what? Where? When? How?! I hear you cry, who says such blasphemy?
The man who wrote article 50. Have a read for yourself.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.in...t-theresa-may-a7394816.html?amp?client=safari

 

[pastafarian]

Oof. Very, very dangerous rhetoric. We will need the best minds on this, as has been clearly demonstrated those minds do not reside in the Leave camp. Remainers are still UK citizens, our voice and opinion still counts, we didn't lose our democratic rights just because of the referendum result. Your way of thinking is going to get this country into deep economic, political and social strife. Think on.

you lost the vote
the primary decisions will be based on the majority not the minority.......one day you will understand the concept of referendum

 

[The Clamp]

you lost the vote
the primary decisions will be based on the majority not the minority.......one day you will understand the concept of referendum

We all lost. Some of you just don't realise it yet.

 

[pastafarian]

I've been ignoring your drivel of late but that one I'm afraid, deserves a retort because it is simply incorrect. Brexit can be halted after A50 is triggered. But what? Where? When? How?! I hear you cry, who says such blasphemy?
The man who wrote article 50. Have a read for yourself.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.in...t-theresa-may-a7394816.html?amp?client=safari

actually chap its not incorrect, because some bloke who wrote it thinks the opposite doesnt make it true, his opinion is not valid
i know you are desperate to believe its possible to back out of A50 as its one of the last chance ways you can envisage reversing this whole thing.....but you are simply wrong here

 

[JCL666]

Questioning the objectivity of the justice system on the Andrew Marr show?

Suggesting that the reach of Europe is long?

How is that constructive? How does that help us move forward?

All this talk of public anger the like of which we've never witnessed. It's almost as if there are only 17 million people in this country.

Farage is a conspiracy nut in tweed, and those who buy into what he says are classic "useful idiots".

 

[Baldseagull]

Im afraid chap you wont get what you hope for and you and your thumbs up chums will be in for a bit of a nasty shock later on.

Even if parliament vote to reject the final negotiated package we will still be leaving just not according to the "rejected" package.

Article 50 is a one way ticket to leaving the EU,
Once notice is given it cant be withdrawn and the end game of leaving the EU is inevitable.

This is why the likes of Clegg,Soubry and Lammy are determined to throw spanners in the works now,delay the outcome and give enough time for the invented post referendum "soft" brexit approach (which is code for NO Brexit) to be pushed as a new option. They are fully aware once notice is given its game over......in that we are leaving.

It is not clear whether A50 is irrevocable or not, this is one of the things Parliament should discuss. Soft Brexit is not code for no Brexit, it was mentioned before the referendum that Brexit could mean a Norway type arrangement or a full withdrawal, and a retreat to WTO terms.

 

[The Clamp]

actually chap its not incorrect, because some bloke who wrote it thinks the opposite doesnt make it true, his opinion is not valid
i know you are desperate to believe its possible to back out of A50 as its one of the last chance ways you can envisage reversing this whole thing.....but you are simply wrong here

Have you ever sounded more daft? Priceless. But I digress.

Let's compare credentials.

Lord Kerr: Former head of the UK diplomatic service, House of Lords Peer, Secretary General of the European Convention, man who penned article 50.

Pastafarian: Internet addict, Troll.

I very much doubt Brexit will be stopped, I fear we will continue blindly marching into this disaster I am merely pointing out you are wrong when you say article 50 is irreversible. It's not. The EU cannot legally force us to leave whether article 50 has been triggered or not. That is FACT.

 

[pastafarian]

It is not clear whether A50 is irrevocable or not, this is one of the things Parliament should discuss. Soft Brexit is not code for no Brexit, it was mentioned before the referendum that Brexit could mean a Norway type arrangement or a full withdrawal, and a retreat to WTO terms.

A50 is very clear im afraid it is irrevocable, you and clampy im afraid are with respect wrong

 

[The Clamp]

A50 is very clear im afraid it is irrevocable, you and clampy im afraid are with respect wrong

Daydream believer. You are simply incorrect.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-how-does-article-50-work-2016-7

 

[The Clamp]

Sorry Pasta:

From UK Business Insider:

We asked our witnesses whether it was possible to reverse a decision to withdraw. Both agreed that a Member State could legally reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU at any point before the date on which the withdrawal agreement took effect. Once the withdrawal agreement had taken effect, however, withdrawal was final. Sir David told us: "It is absolutely clear that you cannot be forced to go through with it if you do not want to: for example, if there is a change of Government." Professor Wyatt supported this view with the following legal analysis:

"There is nothing in the wording to say that you cannot. It is in accord with the general aims of the Treaties that people stay in rather than rush out of the exit door. There is also the specific provision in Article 50 to the effect that, if a State withdraws, it has to apply to rejoin de novo. That only applies once you have left. If you could not change your mind after a year of thinking about it, but before you had withdrawn, you would then have to wait another year, withdraw and then apply to join again. That just does not make sense. Analysis of the text suggests that you are entitled to change your mind."

... There is nothing in Article 50 formally to prevent a Member State from reversing its decision to withdraw in the course of the withdrawal negotiations. The political consequences of such a change of mind would, though, be substantial.