[News] Braking news - more train strikes over the Christmas period announced

[Uh_huh_him]

It feels like I'm missing something somewhere, since the story seems to be...

- Sundays should be considered a regular working day and not reliant upon overtime to run services
- There's not enough people to work Sundays on regular hours
- There's no desire to expand the workforce

...which leaves a bit of a gap with regard to resourcing Sunday services, doesn't it?

I'm not sure your 2nd bullet point is true.
The discussion is about how much the TOCs pay for this.

As far as I'm aware, any company seeking to change contractual terms of it's employees for payment and annual leave, has to inform them of the proposed change and get them to approve it.
That is all that's happening here.
It would be the same in the private sector.

 

[Bozza]

I'm not sure your 2nd bullet point is true.

Sorry, I was merely paraphrasing @jackalbion's "if they want to start covering Sundays on the roster, they need to recruit a lot more staff". Doesn't this essentially say there aren't enough rail workers to work Sundays if overtime isn't going to be used?

I agree to a certain extent, a public service shouldn’t be reliant on overtime, but there isn’t enough staff to cover the basic service without overtime, if they want to start covering Sundays on the roster, they need to recruit a lot more staff, something they are reluctant to do.

 

[BBassic]

The point that seems to be missed here is that T&C’s need to be updated because they are so unbelievably antiquated. The fact that on public transport a Sunday will only now be seen as a normal day sums it up.

Also the claim that wage increases must keep up with cost of inflation is disingenuous and unrealistic. No company can afford to give a double digits increase in one year, everyone has to accept that due to external factors we will all take a hit this year. Also, interesting that in all the years that wage increases in the rail industry were above inflation they were gladly accepted despite the antiquated working conditions.

In the main I am supporter of unions defending their members but the ridiculous working practices that continue to plague our railways need to be addressed.

Largely agree with all this but it's a bit of a kick in the teeth being refused what you feel is a fair wage rise when shareholders and CEOs take home millions.

 

[JamesAndTheGiantHead]

Genuine question for the OP; did all the brake puns on the last misspelled thread title not register or are you on a wind up?

 

[rippleman]

I think you may have been referring to my comment earlier - apologies if not. I certainly wasn’t being blithe!

I use assisted travel most of the time when travelling by train - it’s not necessary to book in advance but you are advised to - there is a national dedicated phone number to do so and they then inform ahead, on your behalf all the train companies you’d be using what time your train arrives/connections etc You then get email updates at every step of the way if there’s any changes to train times. It’s a fantastic service and the station staff who help out are amazing and bend over backwards to help you. I’ve never been let down.

But yes, as you say, on completely unmanned stations (like the semi-rural one I use) it’s a case of hoping the incoming train has a ticket collector on it, prepared to help you on with luggage etc. If trains become completely unmanned, surely some provision will have to be made for disabled people and for health and safety of the general public?

PS Some of the terms and conditions being offered in exchange for the 8% over 2 years are disgraceful - it’s like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

I understand your point but if there are no staff at the station, then "booking ahead" isn't really an option.

I have twice had to help lift off wheelchairs (once at Shoreham, once at Worthing) after evening games because the staff at those stations had all gone home, having locked up the access ramps.

If the rail companies have their way, there won't be an onboard ticket collector to assist those with mobility issues.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The point that seems to be missed here is that T&C’s need to be updated because they are so unbelievably antiquated. The fact that on public transport a Sunday will only now be seen as a normal day sums it up.

Also the claim that wage increases must keep up with cost of inflation is disingenuous and unrealistic. No company can afford to give a double digits increase in one year, everyone has to accept that due to external factors we will all take a hit this year. Also, interesting that in all the years that wage increases in the rail industry were above inflation they were gladly accepted despite the antiquated working conditions.

In the main I am supporter of unions defending their members but the ridiculous working practices that continue to plague our railways need to be addressed.

But the point remains that to change t's & c's the TOCs need to offer something acceptable as a replacement.
It isn't ok to just change the terms as a condition for a (less than) cost of living pay rise.

Would you readily accept a reduction in annual leave and mandatory Sunday working for a 4% increase?

 

[jackalbion]

When you then say plan a longer rail journey as a family, say to the North or something, the cost is eye watering compared to a tank of fuel or so. This does need to change. Rail does need to be attractive to you, me, and everyone where it is an option, both in terms of quality and frequency of service. Rail companies don't want to run services for convenience, they only want to run what makes the money and cut back on what doesn't - our rail has to be more than that.

Here, here, they’re being driven into the ground in desperation to make as much profit as possible. We need a good service and these reforms the government want to do won’t do as such. The franchise system is an absolute mess, it needs a sledgehammer to it, then we fix things and build a workable railway.

 

[The Clamp]

Same old “I’m all for workers rights….until it affects me and then they can go to heck”.

I will add that though that the rail industry desperately needs updating.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Sorry, I was merely paraphrasing @jackalbion's "if they want to start covering Sundays on the roster, they need to recruit a lot more staff". Doesn't this essentially say there aren't enough rail workers to work Sundays if overtime isn't going to be used?

That's probably true, which would explain the need to make the changes to: Annual Leave/Sick pay/ Attendance management.
None of those changes are in themselves an issue, if the company are prepared to recompense people for the changes.

 

[jackalbion]

That's probably true, which would explain the need to make the changes to: Annual Leave/Sick pay/ Attendance management.
None of those changes are in themselves an issue, if the company are prepared to recompense people for the changes.

Definitely, despite what people on here think, working for the railways is a very skilled profession, just giving people shite terms and getting under qualified agency workers to replace 50 years of knowledge, would make the railways so much worse.

 

[Zeberdi]

I think we do agree that it needs investment, it does need to be renationalised in some form, but not under the Tories as they won’t invest.

Network Rail who run infrastructure is already in public hands as we know, but I agree, full nationalisation is never likely to become Tory Party Manifesto which is why I said I would probably vote Green who have the strongest political agenda for wanting the entire system back in public hands. I think under that scenario, we would need to be looking at a complete overhall of the current system and billions of pounds worth of capital investment. Likely to be funded by higher fares and taxation.

Post-Pandemic, after the regional franchisees (set up under Major) were almost on their knees with lost revenue, they were effectively scrapped and the government now runs the industry through contracts and the private operators no longer have the revenue from fares and the government bares the risk if people fewer people use the railways - 5 franchisees were bought completely back under government control effectively renationalising them including Southeastern.

We now have a hybrid situation which doesn’t favour anyone. The irony is since the Railways Act 1993 prevented the State from running the railways, many foreign state owned enterprises now run private rail franchises in the UK.

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

Same old “I’m all for workers rights….until it affects me and then they can go to heck”.

I will add that though that the rail industry desperately needs updating.

Similar here. I’ve sacrificed away games this season and will continue to do so due to rail dispute with no hard feelings to striking rail workers. There are plenty of options to improve the industry on so many levels - needs a total rethink.

 

[Zeberdi]

understand your point but if there are no staff at the station, then "booking ahead" isn't really an option.

No, the opposite- where stations are always unmanned as my local one nearly always is, booking ahead through the national passenger assist or through the regional passenger assist phoneline is the only option. That way they contact the train driver and/or ticket collector before your journey to ensure someone gets off the train at the unmanned station to help you on with your luggage.

 

[jackalbion]

Network Rail who run infrastructure is already in public hands as we know, but I agree, full nationalisation is never likely to become Tory Party Manifesto which is why I said I would probably vote Green who have the strongest political agenda for wanting the entire system back in public hands. I think under that scenario, we would need to be looking at a complete overhall of the current system and billions of pounds worth of capital investment. Likely to be funded by higher fares and taxation.

Post-Pandemic, after the regional franchisees (set up under Major) were almost on their knees with lost revenue, they were effectively scrapped and the government now runs the industry through contracts and the private operators no longer have the revenue from fares and the government bares the risk if people fewer people use the railways - 5 franchisees were bought completely back under government control effectively renationalising them including Southeastern.

We now have a hybrid situation which doesn’t favour anyone. The irony is since the Railways Act 1993 prevented the State from running the railways, many foreign state owned enterprises now run private rail franchises in the UK.

It can be done without raising fares, but we need to put a sledgehammer to the upper parts of the organisational structures. Needs some reform but not the way the government wants to.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I understand your point but if there are no staff at the station, then "booking ahead" isn't really an option.

I have twice had to help lift off wheelchairs (once at Shoreham, once at Worthing) after evening games because the staff at those stations had all gone home, having locked up the access ramps.

If the rail companies have their way, there won't be an onboard ticket collector to assist those with mobility issues.

A point I was trying to make earlier. I know people who have been stuck, and Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson has been fighting the government for years for better access for disabled passengers.

Tanni Grey-Thompson told there was 'no room' on train for her

Tanni Grey-Thompson says she could not board a train after a passenger said there was "no room".

www.bbc.co.uk

This lady (another Paralympian) was helped by staff but the disabled toilet was out of order, and the next station was unmanned so she wasn't able to use that disabled toilet.

Paralympian tells of train toilet 'humiliation'

A Paralympian says she ended up wetting herself on a train because the disabled toilet was out of order.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Zeberdi]

Same old “I’m all for workers rights….until it affects me and then they can go to heck”.

Before you condemn people for running out of patient, perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No, the opposite- where stations are always unmanned as my local one nearly always is, booking ahead through the national passenger assist or through the regional passenger assist phoneline is the only option. That way they contact the train driver and/or ticket collector before your journey to ensure someone gets off the train at the unmanned station to help you on with your luggage.

If they remember.

 

[jackalbion]

No, the opposite- where stations are always unmanned as my local one nearly always is, booking ahead through the national passenger assist or through the regional passenger assist phoneline is the only option. That way they contact the train driver and/or ticket collector before your journey to ensure someone gets off the train at the unmanned station to help you on with your luggage.

The suggestion would also take staff off trains, there would be no one to help anyone off the train without literally decades and decades of new technology and rebuild of the majority of infrastructure.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sounds like they are refusing to learn a new system? no wonder the train network is so poor and set in the past.

Like the Post Office workers who had a new system which ended up with over 400 of them being put in prison for 'fraud'?

 

[The Clamp]

Before you condemn people for running out of patient, perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes

What makes you think I haven’t?

NB. It’s patience. If there’s one thing Britain certainly isn’t running out of, it’s patients.