[News] Braking news - more train strikes over the Christmas period announced

[jimhigham]

Do they?
Was the offer put to the members before being rejected out of hand?
I’m sure everyone would love more money in their pay packets, unfortunately the world doesn’t work like that. Non public sector employees will, for the most part, not get an above inflation pay rise because it’s not sustainable.

May I politely request you refrain from drawing comparisons with non public sector workers? This is precisely what the government wants to happen. Play one sector off against the other in the hope that neither notices the woeful state of their own terms and conditions.

I am a public sector worker. I have given 30 years service. I have represented this country overseas at a diplomatic level. I have specialist forensic skills that are used every day to prevent abuse of our entry requirements. And I’ve been checking my P60s. My final salary in 2021/22 was less than it was 2011/12. How is this fair, regardless of which sector I work in? This is an erosion in living standards covering a decade and now I’m being asked to accept another?

I’ve taken on a second job. I work 6 and 7 day weeks throughout the summer. I’ve cut back on all manner of things. Gym membership. Meat. Etc. I can’t remember the last time I actually bought some clothes just because I felt like it. My daughter’s accommodation bill for her Masters this year is almost a third of my annual income. I pay it gladly because she’s the light of my life and I want her to have every opportunity I can possibly facilitate. But the government seems hell bent on clipping my wings and, by extension, hers.

Did I have a point before I began this rant? Oh yes! That’s it. I support more or less any worker fighting for their rights in these tough times specifically and I don’t care which sector they’re in. This government will look to divide us any way they can. I never thought I’d see the day a minister suggested nurses were doing Putin’s work (paraphrasing slightly) but here we are. The rail strikes will inconvenience me. I had two back to back gigs arranged in London next week with my daughter, my musical confidante and gig buddy. I’ve been looking forward to them so much. The start of my festive season. They’re gone now. OK, I dramatise slightly. I should be able to drive in for the second one as it happens. I still support the rail workers.

And I bet they’d support us if we stood up for our rights too.

 

[jackalbion]

They arent though are they, if they were they would affect rush hour business workers but those arent the times or days targetted.

Essentially calling off engineering works is a lot more disruptive than you think, there’s a whole refurbishment of Victoria signalling in this period, that’ll be postponed. Monday to Friday isn’t the busiest days of the week for the railways now, Saturday is. Anyway they are targeting these times, they are striking on the 13-14th December and 16-17th. I can imagine this is going to get moved to the bear pit because it’s full of people who don’t seem to have a clue what they are talking about.

 

[Zeberdi]

think these strikes are designed to be as disruptive as possible, to force the government into action,

I don’t think the government give two hoots about the likes of lillle ole me and others like me

So passengers like myself, with no access to alternative transport, or who have disabilities and/or who are also reliant on regular and frequent life-saving hospital treatment from the nearest hospital only accessible by train) ) are just collateral damage? - It just makes me angry, how does hurting me or these groups of people help the railway staff get what they want?

I would guess that nearly everyone on this thread has access to a car, or someone else with one reading through some of the “inconveniences“ people are “suffering”. If I did, I honestly would be more sympathetic to these strikes, I’ll own up to that and I don’t have a politics of envy when it comes to other people’s income (I’m not at all materialistically minded) BUT as it is - Strikes on a condensed number of days, in the run up to Christmas (a time that very elderly people are likely to be needing to visit family etc), in the evenings and weekends is just wrong IMO. There are fairer and more equitable times to take industrial action that doesnt disproportionately effect the vulnerable members of our society.

Btw - I wasn’t always a selfish old git - I worked over 30 years in the public sector, was a traditional Labour Party member/council elect, Union Rep, had ‘Keep the Red Flag Flying’ on my answer machine for many years, and campaigned for every Labour Party election until anorak Corbyn took charge, then hung up my clogs.

Anyway: Thank you @TomandJerry for the platform

 

[jackalbion]

I don’t think the government give two hoots about the likes of lillle ole me and others like me

So passengers like myself, with no access to alternative transport, or who have disabilities and/or who are also reliant on regular and frequent life-saving hospital treatment from the nearest hospital only accessible by train) ) are just collateral damage? - It just makes me angry, how does hurting me or these groups of people help the railway staff get what they want?

I would guess that nearly everyone on this thread has access to a car, or someone else with one reading through some of the “inconveniences“ people are “suffering”. If I did, I honestly would be more sympathetic to these strikes, I’ll own up to that and I don’t have a politics of envy when it comes to other people’s income (I’m not at all materialistically minded) BUT as it is - Strikes on a condensed number of days, in the run up to Christmas (a time that very elderly people are likely to be needing to visit family etc), in the evenings and weekends is just wrong IMO. There are fairer and more equitable times to take industrial action that doesnt disproportionately effect the vulnerable members of our society.

Btw - I wasn’t always a selfish old git - I worked over 30 years in the public sector, was a traditional Labour Party member/council elect, Union Rep, had ‘Keep the Red Flag Flying’ on my answer machine for many years, and campaigned for every Labour Party election until anorak Corbyn took charge, then hung up my clogs.

Anyway: Thank you @TomandJerry for the platform

I don’t think it’s fair to say they just think you are collateral damage, the line at the beginning is your problem. The strikes on the 24th, 26th and 27th, don’t really affect service. Most of the strikes are in weekdays, 13th, 14th and 16th are weekdays and 3rd, 4th and 6th are weekdays, ultimately there isn’t ever a good time to strike. You would think that the government would see that the strikes are hurting you and those groups and want to solve the issues that are causing them, but they don’t, there’s one party in these strikes who aren’t proactively solving it, and thats the government and RDG.

 

[Binney on acid]

Deleted my comment, and started a new thread.

 

[Zeberdi]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they just think you are collateral damage, the line at the beginning is your problem. The strikes on the 24th, 26th and 27th, don’t really affect service. Most of the strikes are in weekdays, 13th, 14th and 16th are weekdays and 3rd, 4th and 6th are weekdays, ultimately there isn’t ever a good time to strike. You would think that the government would see that the strikes are hurting you and those groups and want to solve the issues that are causing them, but they don’t, there’s one party in these strikes who aren’t proactively solving it, and thats the government and RDG.

Jack - please read that sentence again - I wasn’t accusing anyone of thinking that. It was a rhetorical question without a ‘they’. But is it a fact, there is collateral damage and that’s the passengers - there always is.

The strikes in the weekdays leading up to Christmas will indeed impact on me personally to the extent they coincide with a series of hospital appointments (which, if they cant be moved to non-strike days that week, will have to be rescheduled for next year - and also will impact on me (and millions of others) hoping to travel to family for Christmas (or more specifically for me if I am well enough to risk the journey, trying to get back on the 27th in time to start work again).

Anyone that has travelled on trains the day before or the day after a strike, or even earlier on the day a strike is supposed to start, will know, as I have discovered in the past 6 months, trains start late the next day (because stock is not where it’s supposed to be) and millions of people will end up travelling over Christmas on days that trains aren’t on strike, creating a bottle neck and congestion chaos - packed trains so unable to sit down, unable to get on trains because they are literally full - delayed and cancelled trains and staff shortages because of overtime bans. Anyone who thinks disruption is only caused on strike days has not experienced the full impact. Doing this in Christmas week will make Christmas a miserable experience for millions of people especially for elderly and disabled people, and could make people chose to spend Christmas alone rather than risk the chaos of delays and cancellations (on non-strike days!).

I travelled all over Europe when I was younger on the SNCF and I was always amazed at what a reliable, fast and modern service it was ( although Macron wants to privatise that) - The railways need to be renationalised IMO - it’s the only way out of this mess and for re-investment of the money we spend on rail fairs paid back into the infrastructure of our railway service and for staff to stop being exploited - and I will be voting for a Party (probably the Greens) at the next General Election to do just that but that is all I have to offer in terms of support I am afraid.

(I know there isn’t a ‘good time to strike’ but doing so at Christmas when people are already struggling with everything else in their lives, feels just downright destructive.)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes you can and it is all well and good till you say you are now on strike...

You can’t just say you are on strike. The members have to vote for a strike, and the result of the RMT ballot was 80% in favour.
It’s democracy in action.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they just think you are collateral damage, the line at the beginning is your problem. The strikes on the 24th, 26th and 27th, don’t really affect service. Most of the strikes are in weekdays, 13th, 14th and 16th are weekdays and 3rd, 4th and 6th are weekdays, ultimately there isn’t ever a good time to strike. You would think that the government would see that the strikes are hurting you and those groups and want to solve the issues that are causing them, but they don’t, there’s one party in these strikes who aren’t proactively solving it, and thats the government and RDG.

I think it’s perfectly fair to say it, that’s what people in his position are, as are industries that haven’t had Christmas trade for two years.

The Unions are paid to look after members which is what they are doing, that’s fine - but it is a case of screw everyone else to get to that.

They are not doing it for anyone else other than members, which is again fine, but let’s not pretend otherwise.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

are you? there's 3 seperate distputes going on, drivers, train staff, national rail. one common theme, union resistance to change.


sure, investment from the public purse. and what do the unions say to that? dont want to change any working practices, keep everything the same. how's investment supposed to work if nothing new is allowed?

Not all change is good. Fire and rehire isn’t good, even though it is change.

I noticed someone blithely posting disabled people can book assistance in advance. In theory, yes, but in practise, it is already shaky due to lack of staff.

Modern technology is great when it works. Many times I’ve read about ticket machines being out of order.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Not all change is good. Fire and rehire isn’t good, even though it is change.

I noticed someone blithely posting disabled people can book assistance in advance. In theory, yes, but in practise, it is already shaky due to lack of staff.

Modern technology is great when it works. Many times I’ve read about ticket machines being out of order.

Most change is good, being able to book tickets at a machine, online, on a phone or app is miles better than having to queue up at the station, using an occasion ticket machine being broken doesn’t undo the overwhelming benefits of them

It seems the unions are against any change at all from the list posted above.

 

[beorhthelm]

I think these strikes are designed to be as disruptive as possible, to force the government into action, I think they've got 80% of the way there by forcing the government around the table, and talks are carrying on all week. I think we are near the end, but it’ll be a grind to get there, but if these are a success for everyone, I think it’ll be great for all workers as a whole. I think they’ve been tactful with the timing, the new announced ones today don’t have a HUGE affect on service as they start at 18:00 24th and finish at 06:00 27th, its more aimed at engineering work. So hopefully that shouldn’t be a probably and it’ll hit the companies where it hurts not the customer.

that company will be nationally owned National Rail, and customers will be hurt by the rescheduled engineering work. thanks for maximising the disruption.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

It’s to broad a statement , but if it’s well built it’s infinitely better than most phone agents can manage for many things.

And buying your own train ticket on your phone or ticket machine is infinitely better than anything that involves queueing for a human(s)

I

Hopefully the members stand up to their 70s throwback leader who just wants to play politics.
What public support they had will quickly disappear when people in non public service jobs aren’t getting a pay rise.

I work in the private sector,
I haven't had a pay rise for 5 years, until this year.
I received only 4% because I'm in one of the higher salary bands. My colleagues on lower salary bands have received much higher increases.
None of this was dependant on changes to our terms and conditions.

Wages in the private sector have been rising over the past 18 months (generally) and most employers acknowledge they have to do something to assist their employees with the cost of living rises.

Pretending the offer put to the RMT is much better than what the private sector will see, is total bullshit.

 

[beorhthelm]

Not all change is good. Fire and rehire isn’t good, even though it is change.

I noticed someone blithely posting disabled people can book assistance in advance. In theory, yes, but in practise, it is already shaky due to lack of staff.

Modern technology is great when it works. Many times I’ve read about ticket machines being out of order.

ticket office is great when it works, often shut, only the ticket machine available (much more reliable than in the past btw). there are jobs that are literally redundant, they need to change, transfer role from one contract to another, but blocked. DOO is good example use of technology being blocked, having an OBS works fine as alternative to guard role.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Not all change is good. Fire and rehire isn’t good, even though it is change.

I noticed someone blithely posting disabled people can book assistance in advance. In theory, yes, but in practise, it is already shaky due to lack of staff.

Modern technology is great when it works. Many times I’ve read about ticket machines being out of order.

Most ticket machines don't offer the reduced fares available on specific lines.
I have to go to a ticket office to book a supersaver ticket.
Sure you can order them online, but that isn't always possible.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Just a reminder of why rail fares are so high, and workers who actually do the work are struggling.
The government likes shareholders, workers aren’t important.

 

[A1X]

having an OBS works fine as alternative to guard role.

Right up to the point where there’s an emergency situation which incapacitates a driver and leaves everyone stranded on the train because the OBS staff are not properly safety trained like guards are and as such are not permitted trackside to help facilitate a safe evacuation.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

only one that looks unreasonable is closure of all ticket office, which i also dont believe is true. i particularly like adoption of new technology put there, as if learning new tools and advancing skills is an imposition. it also shows a union literally stuck in the past.

Seriously?

In return for a 4% payrise, you would willingly have your terms and conditions rewritten?

• Change to leave and Sick pay arrangements
• Changes to Mandatory Sunday working
• Job severances
• Flexible contracts
• Driver only trains

Never had you down as a mug.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Be interesting to see the reaction when nurses and teachers go on strike too.

 

[Zeberdi]

I noticed someone blithely posting disabled people can book assistance in advance. In theory, yes, but in practise, it is already shaky due to lack of staff.

I think you may have been referring to my comment earlier - apologies if not. I certainly wasn’t being blithe!

I use assisted travel most of the time when travelling by train - it’s not necessary to book in advance but you are advised to - there is a national dedicated phone number to do so and they then inform ahead, on your behalf all the train companies you’d be using what time your train arrives/connections etc You then get email updates at every step of the way if there’s any changes to train times. It’s a fantastic service and the station staff who help out are amazing and bend over backwards to help you. I’ve never been let down.

But yes, as you say, on completely unmanned stations (like the semi-rural one I use) it’s a case of hoping the incoming train has a ticket collector on it, prepared to help you on with luggage etc. If trains become completely unmanned, surely some provision will have to be made for disabled people and for health and safety of the general public?

PS Some of the terms and conditions being offered in exchange for the 8% over 2 years are disgraceful - it’s like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

 

[beorhthelm]

Seriously?

In return for a 4% payrise, you would willingly have your terms and conditions rewritten?

• Change to leave and Sick pay arrangements
• Changes to Mandatory Sunday working
• Job severances
• Flexible contracts
• Driver only trains

Never had you down as a mug.

they should be holding out for more pay for the changes. they shouldnt be blanket blocking all change. jobs will go, new jobs created. cant reasonably expect new tech or work practices that are more efficent, different locations or roles to require the same existing staff contracts. we the public are expecting weekend service, so we need Sunday working. or drop the pretence, so surprised how much the server relies on overtime and rest day working.

what will happen is they will eventually get larger pay, assurance on some issues, while other issues will disappear. they're all just bargining chips for the union.