Boro meltdown

[Braggfan]

I'm not suggesting Gus had never done anything wrong, I don't think our club would have completely made it up, but he might have done something wrong that the club then used as the reason to get rid of him, when the real reason was a combination of things, including pimping himself to other clubs and showing a lack of respect for the job he was being paid to do.

We also don't know that he got no compensation, we don't know what the settlement was.

I think he started to appeal it, but was then in another, better job, and as I say he may have had some compensation, we don't know. We also don't know that he did anything that bad.

Well I guess this all hinges on whether he got compensation or not.

A club can give any reason they like for dismissing someone, but a collective group of issues such as asking for more money, speaking to another club isn’t gross misconduct. You might disagree with me but employment law doesn’t. And if that was why he got the boot then he would have taken it to a tribunal and probably won. Especially given how hard it is to sack a manager nowadays and not pay a penny.

If there was a specific and undisclosed reason, that constitutes gross misconduct then if the club can prove it and follows their own disciplinary procedures then it would be very hard for the employee to get any compensation. Now I remember the criticism the club got at the time for dragging their heals, but this was because they carried out an internal investigation, dismissed him and then listened to Poyet’s appeals. That is standard for any dismissal in any job. This meant that there would be no case for Poyet getting anything on a technicality. He later dropped the case against the Albion, which means he didn’t get a penny. Why would you do that unless you had absolutely no chance of winning. Even half a chance you’d probably fight it because of the money involved.

So if you believe Poyet got some money out of the club then his dismissal could’ve been for a reason as you’ve suggested. But if as reported Poyet dropped his claim and didn’t get compensation, it would suggest it was something very specific that the club had him bang to rights on, and will probably be something that is never reported.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'm not suggesting Gus had never done anything wrong

Are you now constructing sentences in the style of Alan Shearer?

 

[nwgull]

Well I guess this all hinges on whether he got compensation or not.

A club can give any reason they like for dismissing someone, but a collective group of issues such as asking for more money, speaking to another club isn’t gross misconduct. You might disagree with me but employment law doesn’t. And if that was why he got the boot then he would have taken it to a tribunal and probably won. Especially given how hard it is to sack a manager nowadays and not pay a penny.

If there was a specific and undisclosed reason, that constitutes gross misconduct then if the club can prove it and follows their own disciplinary procedures then it would be very hard for the employee to get any compensation. Now I remember the criticism the club got at the time for dragging their heals, but this was because they carried out an internal investigation, dismissed him and then listened to Poyet’s appeals. That is standard for any dismissal in any job. This meant that there would be no case for Poyet getting anything on a technicality. He later dropped the case against the Albion, which means he didn’t get a penny. Why would you do that unless you had absolutely no chance of winning. Even half a chance you’d probably fight it because of the money involved.

So if you believe Poyet got some money out of the club then his dismissal could’ve been for a reason as you’ve suggested. But if as reported Poyet dropped his claim and didn’t get compensation, it would suggest it was something very specific that the club had him bang to rights on, and will probably be something that is never reported.

Poyet dropped his case because he and his lawyer probably settled out of court.

 

[Javeaseagull]

Poyet dropped his case because he and his lawyer probably settled out of court.

I always assumed he dropped his appeal because he got the Sunderland job.

 

[Mancgull]

Well I guess this all hinges on whether he got compensation or not.

A club can give any reason they like for dismissing someone, but a collective group of issues such as asking for more money, speaking to another club isn’t gross misconduct. You might disagree with me but employment law doesn’t. And if that was why he got the boot then he would have taken it to a tribunal and probably won. Especially given how hard it is to sack a manager nowadays and not pay a penny.

If there was a specific and undisclosed reason, that constitutes gross misconduct then if the club can prove it and follows their own disciplinary procedures then it would be very hard for the employee to get any compensation. Now I remember the criticism the club got at the time for dragging their heals, but this was because they carried out an internal investigation, dismissed him and then listened to Poyet’s appeals. That is standard for any dismissal in any job. This meant that there would be no case for Poyet getting anything on a technicality. He later dropped the case against the Albion, which means he didn’t get a penny. Why would you do that unless you had absolutely no chance of winning. Even half a chance you’d probably fight it because of the money involved.

So if you believe Poyet got some money out of the club then his dismissal could’ve been for a reason as you’ve suggested. But if as reported Poyet dropped his claim and didn’t get compensation, it would suggest it was something very specific that the club had him bang to rights on, and will probably be something that is never reported.

My understanding is that he was dismissed for Gross Misconduct. I have no idea what the issue was but my guess was that it was for tapping up players whilst at BHA for a move to the Premiership. ( just a guess mind you) we went through all the correct procedures including allowing him an appeal to the gross misconduct sanction and these upheld the original decision.
The alleged payment of a 'compensation payment came when Gus and the club came to a compromise agreement prior to the potential resulting Employment Tribunal. By this time Gus had acquired a new job at Sunderland meaning that if he was to win the tribunal he wouldn't get much of a payment anyway. Both sides legal advisers probably thought it best to reach a compromise which would include a confidentiality agreement, thereby preventing the situation where we would have to wash our dirty laundry in public. A small payment was made to Gus.
Again I must reiterate that this is partially guess work.
However, that's all in the past. What's more important now is that Boro have a difficult decision to make. Keep AK and risk alienating a couple of players or sack him and try to find a decent replacement quickly who will steer them to the Premiership. My guess is that they will try to keep AK but it's unlikely that after this tantrum that he will be the long term answer.

 

[sparkie]

We have to rehash lots of old Poyet talk which has been done a thousand times on a hundred other threads, whereas on the Boro forum they are talking of a chair being luzzed at the manager

 

[Braggfan]

I always assumed he dropped his appeal because he got the Sunderland job.

Well he got that job a fair bit after the unpleasantness, but getting another job wouldn’t hinder his chances of winning a tribunal. He had a lot of money tied up his contract at Brighton, and if it was an unfair dismissal he would have felt entitled to it. I’m not trying to read Poyet’s mind here, but he was a proud man and I find it odd that he would forget about it because he moved on to a new job (just my opinion). Most managers that are sacked nowadays get compensation, it really is odd for someone not to. Which really does suggests that there was something concrete and undisputable about the club’s decision.

 

[Braggfan]

We have to rehash lots of old Poyet talk which has been done a thousand times on a hundred other threads, whereas on the Boro forum they are talking of a chair being luzzed at the manager

Yeah sorry, that's completely my fault. I do quite enjoy the Poyet conspiracy

 

[Mancgull]

Well he got that job a fair bit after the unpleasantness, but getting another job wouldn’t hinder his chances of winning a tribunal. He had a lot of money tied up his contract at Brighton, and if it was an unfair dismissal he would have felt entitled to it. I’m not trying to read Poyet’s mind here, but he was a proud man and I find it odd that he would forget about it because he moved on to a new job (just my opinion). Most managers that are sacked nowadays get compensation, it really is odd for someone not to. Which really does suggests that there was something concrete and undisputable about the club’s decision.

Getting the job at Sunderland wouldn't have hindered his chances of winning the ET but it would have significantly reduced any payment coming his way if he had won it. In the circumstances I expect that both sides felt that a compromise agreement before the ET was the best way forward. Both us and Gus in that position would not have benefitted from the resulting press exposure as an ET is completely public. Any compromise agreement would necessitate confidentiality and that was surely better for us and Gus who was then managing in the Premiership.

 

[Peter Grummit]

This thread isn't about Poyet. If you want to raise that (again) then start a new thread.

PG

 

[Braggfan]

Getting the job at Sunderland wouldn't have hindered his chances of winning the ET but it would have significantly reduced any payment coming his way if he had won it. In the circumstances I expect that both sides felt that a compromise agreement before the ET was the best way forward. Both us and Gus in that position would not have benefitted from the resulting press exposure as an ET is completely public. Any compromise agreement would necessitate confidentiality and that was surely better for us and Gus who was then managing in the Premiership.

We’ll never know for sure but it’s interesting speculating. This link makes interesting reading in that it suggest no compensation changed hands in the agreement.
http://www.redmans.co.uk/news/gus-p...tribunal-claim-against-brighton-football-club
Maybe that’s because he wouldn’t have got as much due to taking his new job, maybe it’s because he didn’t think he could win. Whatever the reason though, I think “gross misconduct” is still telling because it rules certain things out.

 

[Braggfan]

This thread isn't about Poyet. If you want to raise that (again) then start a new thread.

PG

thanks for clearing that up

 

[Triggaaar]

Well I guess this all hinges on whether he got compensation or not.

Apparently he did. See comment re El Pres.

A club can give any reason they like for dismissing someone, but a collective group of issues such as asking for more money, speaking to another club isn’t gross misconduct. You might disagree with me but employment law doesn’t. And if that was why he got the boot then he would have taken it to a tribunal and probably won.

No, you're not understanding the point. If an employee is doing a fantastic job for a company, and also happens to have done something wrong (like being drunk, or verbally abusive to a colleague) then the company will try and smooth things over and let it go. If an employee is not doing a good job, then a company might look for anything they've done wrong to start building a case against them so that they might be dismissed. I am obviously not suggesting that Gus asking for more money was gross misconduct. What I'm saying is that the club might have decided Gus wasn't the right man (for several reasons) and then looked to find things he may have done wrong that would help the club dismiss him.

I'm sure many managers could be dismissed for gross misconduct. Alex Ferguson throwing a shoe and injuring David Beckham for example, but of course the club didn't want to sack their best ever manager. The BBC didn't want to get rid of Clarkson, but it was felt he'd gone too far and it was difficult to justify keeping him on to the license payers. Same with players - obviously Liverpool could have sacked Suarez for gross misconduct when he bit someone (again) and for bringing the club into disrepute. However, it wasn't exactly in Liverpool's interests to sack their best player, whom they could sell for £75m. Had it have been a shit player who was a drain on wages, he'd have been sacked for gross misconduct, although the real reason would have been that he was shit at football.

He later dropped the case against the Albion, which means he didn’t get a penny.

No it doesn't.

Why would you do that unless you had absolutely no chance of winning.

Most legal cases are settled out of court. Maybe he had some chance of getting compensation, but no guarantee of winning, and the club offered him something, and he took it. That's how these things usually work.

 

[sparkie]

Let's talk about Gus here...

http://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?335201-Thread-for-Gus-Poyet-discussion-to-keep-it-off-the-Boro-Meltdown-thread&p=7322517#post7322517

 

[Braggfan]

Apparently he did. See comment re El Pres.

No, you're not understanding the point. If an employ is doing a fantastic job for a company, and also happens to have done something wrong (like being drunk, or verbally abusive to a colleague) then the company will try and smooth things over and let it go. If an employee is not doing a good job, then a company might look for anything they've done wrong to start building a case against them so that they might be dismissed. I am obviously not suggesting that Gus asking for more money was gross misconduct. What I'm saying is that the club might have decided Gus wasn't the right man (for several reasons) and then looked to find things he may have done wrong that would help the club dismiss him.

I'm sure many managers could be dismissed for gross misconduct. Alex Ferguson throwing a shoe and injuring David Beckham for example, but of course the club didn't want to sack their best ever manager. The BBC didn't want to get rid of Clarkson, but it was felt he'd gone to far and it was difficult to justify keeping him on to the license payers.

No it doesn't.
Most legal cases are settled out of court. Maybe he had some chance of getting compensation, but no guarantee of winning, and the club offered him something, and he took it. That's how these things usually work.

I agree with you actaully that they may have made a decision and "found" something that gave them the excuse to get rid of him. That still means there was an incident/something to instigate the dismissal.
I'm going to have stop talking about this now though and some people are getting precious about their Middlesbrough thread, despite not actually offering an opinion on it themselves.

 

[beorhthelm]

No it doesn't.
Most legal cases are settled out of court. Maybe he had some chance of getting compensation, but no guarantee of winning, and the club offered him something, and he took it. That's how these things usually work.

not in the case of gross misconduct, the employer is saying you're out immediately due a breach of contract for serious reasons. otherwise they would sack you by giving and paying up the notice period, as is the normal method in football circles.

 

[Exile]

I thought this was interesting, from the Boro forum... Sounds like Steve Agnew subscribes to the Sami Hyypia school of tactics!

Just watched the game again.....I know gluten. It was obvious to most that clayton and leadbitter were coming really deep to get the ball off the centre backs but I've only realised why watching it on telly.

It was obviously a plan and I would think Agnews plan as I haven't see it before, when the centre backs had the ball our full backs pushed on sometimes beyond the wide mid players so leadbitter and clayton dropped into the full back positions to give the centre backs an option
I would think the idea was that we would have 2 wide players on either side against one full back. And on occasions adohma and downing would come inside creating havoc for the guys marking them
Seems like a good plan but for one reason or another it just didn't work
We didn't get the ball to the wide players anywhere near quick enough and so just ended up passing the ball around the back four with no one in midfield to give it to

 

[sydney]

2-0 eff me dead...what were the odds on that...??

 

[sparkie]

I thought this was interesting, from the Boro forum... Sounds like Steve Agnew subscribes to the Sami Hyypia school of tactics!

Long may Boro continue to play The Hyppia Way

 

[Mancgull]

I thought this was interesting, from the Boro forum... Sounds like Steve Agnew subscribes to the Sami Hyypia school of tactics!

Good spot, and exactly the Hyypia tactics. Let's hope they make him the new man at the helm!