[Cricket] Ashes 2021-22

[Machiavelli]

I'm not sure of all the background, but losing Rashid from test cricket was a real loss to England.

I strongly suspect you're right on that front, although there is little evidence from Test cricket to base this hunch. He's one of the best bowlers in short-form cricket. Imagine if he'd played Test cricket for England over the past decade, and had been invested in.
It would be inappropriate to speculate at present and I know less than you on such things, but has he gone public on this? Having stepped forward on the Azeem Rafiq affair, I'd hope if there's anything else that he wanted to say, he'd be more willing to do so now.

 

[seagullwedgee]

Some really good points made about our flaws on this thread.

Another key difference worth highlighting is that the Aussie batters this series have used that classic Test Match stroke called “the leave” almost 50% more often than us. The stat I saw said we had left 16% of deliveries, and the Aussie’s had left 27%. And when you consider their team innings have been in absolute terms MUCH MUCH longer than ours, then that really is a lot more ‘leaves’. This is where being stuck in a T20 mindset comes into play, because in short form cricket, your brain is conditioned to think manufactured shots, and the footwork to accompany it, off every single delivery. Not an easy mindset to escape, but they have done it far better than us.

Bowling, it’s very obvious we are slinging in it consistently a foot or two shorter than they have, which means they are able to leave more on length. But we are just wasting the condition of the ball more quickly by crashing it in two thirds of the way down. Root has said he is unhappy about this perennial issue, but surely he can tell them what he wants, and use his authority on pitch to reinforce it - but he clearly isn’t getting through.

Thirdly, selection and captaincy. Root is part of the selection committee, and we have been an utter disaster. Silverwood to me is completely lost and frazzled in the headlights, a bit like Ole Gunnar at the end, he just looks shell-shocked and clueless, and vacant behind the eyes. And Root’s captaincy on-field for me is, and almost always has been poor. He doesn’t read it well, he doesn’t have a plan that is well executed to attack specific weak points for each batter, he actually sets fields for short bowling, he tries to get 8 9 10 and Jack by banging it in half way down, he just doesn’t ever look like he is out thinking any top order batsman real time. Look at Morgan for example, cool as a cucumber, in control, with very specific plans, tightly executed. Root has to be relieved of the captaincy, of course they won’t do it mid series, but at least we can say he only has 3 defeats, sorry 3 matches, left in him as skipper.

 

[Simster]

Some really good points made about our flaws on this thread.

Another key difference worth highlighting is that the Aussie batters this series have used that classic Test Match stroke called “the leave” almost 50% more often than us. The stat I saw said we had left 16% of deliveries, and the Aussie’s had left 27%. And when you consider their team innings have been in absolute terms MUCH MUCH longer than ours, then that really is a lot more ‘leaves’. This is where being stuck in a T20 mindset comes into play, because in short form cricket, your brain is conditioned to think manufactured shots, and the footwork to accompany it, off every single delivery. Not an easy mindset to escape, but they have done it far better than us.

Bowling, it’s very obvious we are slinging in it consistently a foot or two shorter than they have, which means they are able to leave more on length. But we are just wasting the condition of the ball more quickly by crashing it in two thirds of the way down. Root has said he is unhappy about this perennial issue, but surely he can tell them what he wants, and use his authority on pitch to reinforce it - but he clearly isn’t getting through.

Thirdly, selection and captaincy. Root is part of the selection committee, and we have been an utter disaster. Silverwood to me is completely lost and frazzled in the headlights, a bit like Ole Gunnar at the end, he just looks shell-shocked and clueless, and vacant behind the eyes. And Root’s captaincy on-field for me is, and almost always has been poor. He doesn’t read it well, he doesn’t have a plan that is well executed to attack specific weak points for each batter, he actually sets fields for short bowling, he tries to get 8 9 10 and Jack by banging it in half way down, he just doesn’t ever look like he is out thinking any top order batsman real time. Look at Morgan for example, cool as a cucumber, in control, with very specific plans, tightly executed. Root has to be relieved of the captaincy, of course they won’t do it mid series, but at least we can say he only has 3 defeats, sorry 3 matches, left in him as skipper.

Fully agree with most of this, but take issue with your blaming of T20 for the lack of "leaves". Honestly, I do not believe this change of mindset from T20 to Test is remotely difficult to make. India do it, Australia are coping rather well too. It's not like going go-karting, leaving the track and driving home. That requires a different mindset too, but you manage it and quickly too.

With test match cricket, they have days/months to prepare and adapt, it's not done overnight. The real reason for the difference in leaves is because we don't make their batsmen play enough whereas they do. We haven't bowled full enough or got our seamers to nag just outside off stump in that corridor of uncertainty where the batsman doesn't know whether to play or leave. Bowling is an area I expect us to compete, and we're not doing so for long enough spells - I think that ought to be fixable. It's the batting that looks problematic to me - most of our batsmen are simply crap.

 

[Audax]

Key difference is the bowling from everything I've seen.

1. Aussie pacers are regularly putting it in the fourth stump channel, at a length that draws the batter forward and tempts him to play. You then just have to wait for the one that does "just enough" to draw the false shot. Or, alternatively, send down a bad ball and watch the batters eyes light up and draw the false shot...

2. Aussies have a quality spin option they know they can rely on if the pace attack isn't getting the job done.

And then you can add:

3. Aussies have fielded better, in general. England have put down a lot of catches and it's hurt them big time, in both tests.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Fully agree with most of this, but take issue with your blaming of T20 for the lack of "leaves". Honestly, I do not believe this change of mindset from T20 to Test is remotely difficult to make. India do it, Australia are coping rather well too. It's not like going go-karting, leaving the track and driving home. That requires a different mindset too, but you manage it and quickly too.

With test match cricket, they have days/months to prepare and adapt, it's not done overnight. The real reason for the difference in leaves is because we don't make their batsmen play enough whereas they do. We haven't bowled full enough or got our seamers to nag just outside off stump in that corridor of uncertainty where the batsman doesn't know whether to play or leave. Bowling is an area I expect us to compete, and we're not doing so for long enough spells - I think that ought to be fixable. It's the batting that looks problematic to me - most of our batsmen are simply crap.

You can argue the likes of Warner, Sharma, Ross Taylor and others have become better Test batsman BECAUSE of the shorter formats of the game, not in spite of them. Do we need to adjust our coaching methods and approach so that you aren't distinguishing between formats so much, you are looking at technique and talent rather than dividing up who is a long format who is short at too early a point in a player's career. Travis Head plays all formats and had a shocking season in County cricket, doesn't make him a bad player as this series has already demonstrated.

 

[crodonilson]

Silverwood would pick same 2 teams again

What is this absolute clown still doing in Australia?? Like his team, or even more so, he is woefully out of his depth. If he can't even contemplate that he's made mistakes with the teams he has picked so far and won't learn for future we should send him home now.

 

[Bold Seagull]

hSilverwood would pick same 2 teams again

What is this absolute clown still doing in Australia?? LIke his team, or even more so, he is woefully out of his depth. If he can't even contemplate that he's made mistakes with the teams he has picked so far and won't learn for future we should send him home now.

Almost as bad as Root throwing the bowlers under the bus.

 

[Berty23]

It is bizarre that after having 4 years focusing solely on the ashes for the test side we have ended up with this side and they don’t even realise it was wrong after the event. Remarkable.

I do loads of kids sports coaching and one of the key things I tell the kids is that it is crucial you can reflect on your performance honestly and think about your mistakes. You only learn from mistakes if you accept them and figure out how you don’t make them again. It drives me nuts when kids come off and can’t recognise they have improvements to make. I certainly never have a go at the kids who discuss their mistakes because that is the first step.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Now....that is where you're going wrong. Schoolboy error.

So are you saying we will be shite on any wicket then

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Some really good points made about our flaws on this thread.

Another key difference worth highlighting is that the Aussie batters this series have used that classic Test Match stroke called “the leave” almost 50% more often than us. The stat I saw said we had left 16% of deliveries, and the Aussie’s had left 27%. And when you consider their team innings have been in absolute terms MUCH MUCH longer than ours, then that really is a lot more ‘leaves’. This is where being stuck in a T20 mindset comes into play, because in short form cricket, your brain is conditioned to think manufactured shots, and the footwork to accompany it, off every single delivery. Not an easy mindset to escape, but they have done it far better than us.

Bowling, it’s very obvious we are slinging in it consistently a foot or two shorter than they have, which means they are able to leave more on length. But we are just wasting the condition of the ball more quickly by crashing it in two thirds of the way down. Root has said he is unhappy about this perennial issue, but surely he can tell them what he wants, and use his authority on pitch to reinforce it - but he clearly isn’t getting through.

Thirdly, selection and captaincy. Root is part of the selection committee, and we have been an utter disaster. Silverwood to me is completely lost and frazzled in the headlights, a bit like Ole Gunnar at the end, he just looks shell-shocked and clueless, and vacant behind the eyes. And Root’s captaincy on-field for me is, and almost always has been poor. He doesn’t read it well, he doesn’t have a plan that is well executed to attack specific weak points for each batter, he actually sets fields for short bowling, he tries to get 8 9 10 and Jack by banging it in half way down, he just doesn’t ever look like he is out thinking any top order batsman real time. Look at Morgan for example, cool as a cucumber, in control, with very specific plans, tightly executed. Root has to be relieved of the captaincy, of course they won’t do it mid series, but at least we can say he only has 3 defeats, sorry 3 matches, left in him as skipper.

Thank you, excellently put, for a self confessed cricket virgin to understand.

 

[maresfield seagull]

Some really good points made about our flaws on this thread.

Another key difference worth highlighting is that the Aussie batters this series have used that classic Test Match stroke called “the leave” almost 50% more often than us. The stat I saw said we had left 16% of deliveries, and the Aussie’s had left 27%. And when you consider their team innings have been in absolute terms MUCH MUCH longer than ours, then that really is a lot more ‘leaves’. This is where being stuck in a T20 mindset comes into play, because in short form cricket, your brain is conditioned to think manufactured shots, and the footwork to accompany it, off every single delivery. Not an easy mindset to escape, but they have done it far better than us.



Bowling, it’s very obvious we are slinging in it consistently a foot or two shorter than they have, which means they are able to leave more on length. But we are just wasting the condition of the ball more quickly by crashing it in two thirds of the way down. Root has said he is unhappy about this perennial issue, but surely he can tell them what he wants, and use his authority on pitch to reinforce it - but he clearly isn’t getting through.

Thirdly, selection and captaincy. Root is part of the selection committee, and we have been an utter disaster. Silverwood to me is completely lost and frazzled in the headlights, a bit like Ole Gunnar at the end, he just looks shell-shocked and clueless, and vacant behind the eyes. And Root’s captaincy on-field for me is, and almost always has been poor. He doesn’t read it well, he doesn’t have a plan that is well executed to attack specific weak points for each batter, he actually sets fields for short bowling, he tries to get 8 9 10 and Jack by banging it in half way down, he just doesn’t ever look like he is out thinking any top order batsman real time. Look at Morgan for example, cool as a cucumber, in control, with very specific plans, tightly executed. Root has to be relieved of the captaincy, of course they won’t do it mid series, but at least we can say he only has 3 defeats, sorry 3 matches, left in him as skipper.

One of the commentators mentioned the Leave factor the other day
If I recall correctly his thought process was English players due to more forgiving surfaces in the UK tend to play more shots Compared to the Aussie counterparts who grow up on harder pitches so tend to Leave more balls to travel through
Perhaps it s poor decision making on the players behalf ? Almost trying to force shots they should be leaving ?

 

[Bold Seagull]

One of the commentators mentioned the Leave factor the other day
If I recall correctly his thought process was English players due to more forgiving surfaces in the UK tend to play more shots Compared to the Aussie counterparts who grow up on harder pitches so tend to Leave more balls to travel through
Perhaps it s poor decision making on the players behalf ? Almost trying to force shots they should be leaving ?

I will just throw into the mix that in both tests the Aussies bowled fuller than England and attacked the stumps more. The English batsman did have a lot less to leave than the Aussies did given we bowled so short allowing much more leaving on a length.

I don't disagree with the overall point that we didn't leave as well as we could, just that the cold hard leaving stats need to be compared with how many balls each side bowled that could be left.

 

[maresfield seagull]

I will just throw into the mix that in both tests the Aussies bowled fuller than England and attacked the stumps more. The English batsman did have a lot less to leave than the Aussies did given we bowled so short allowing much more leaving on a length.

I don't disagree with the overall point that we didn't leave as well as we could, just that the cold hard leaving stats need to be compared with how many balls each side bowled that could be left.

Is there a historical precedence that gives further creedence to your point ?
Or is just relevant to the first few tests ? And if their bowling is proving so effective Why the heck ain’t we trying the same approach ?
Now and previously?
Self confessed non aficionado btw just curious

 

[Audax]

I will just throw into the mix that in both tests the Aussies bowled fuller than England and attacked the stumps more. The English batsman did have a lot less to leave than the Aussies did given we bowled so short allowing much more leaving on a length.

I don't disagree with the overall point that we didn't leave as well as we could, just that the cold hard leaving stats need to be compared with how many balls each side bowled that could be left.

Another possible factor, I wonder (not seen a huge amount of the series so far beyond the occasional highlights package on the BBC App), are the England batters unwilling to leave as much because the Aussie bowlers are getting the ball to come back in off the pitch (or, with Starc, through the air)? I'm thinking deliveries like the one that got Woakes - if the Aussies are getting the ball to do that frequently enough I can imagine the England batters will have that in the backs of their minds constantly, encouraging them to play at deliveries they could and should leave.

 

[Berty23]

Hameed’s dismissal is the perfect example of our inability to leave a ball. He lunged forward with low hands and although the ball did take off a little, if it had not it would still have been more than a foot above the stumps. Our batsman really struggle to trust the bounce and leave it based on length. I would suggest this is linked to when we play championship matches in April and may where there is little bounce so the only option is to plonk forward.

The radio comms were saying it was a great delivery etc, but it was one of those deliveries that should get out a tailender rather than an opener. Really poor technique.

 

[LamieRobertson]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59740346

Not good news for Archer and England

 

[Eeyore]

Hameed’s dismissal is the perfect example of our inability to leave a ball. He lunged forward with low hands and although the ball did take off a little, if it had not it would still have been more than a foot above the stumps. Our batsman really struggle to trust the bounce and leave it based on length. I would suggest this is linked to when we play championship matches in April and may where there is little bounce so the only option is to plonk forward.

The radio comms were saying it was a great delivery etc, but it was one of those deliveries that should get out a tailender rather than an opener. Really poor technique.

I still can't understand how Burns plays with such low hands for someone brought up at The Oval. Unless the pitches are different there these days. I certainly would re-assess such a technique in Australia. Still.

 

[Eeyore]

Key difference is the bowling from everything I've seen.

1. Aussie pacers are regularly putting it in the fourth stump channel, at a length that draws the batter forward and tempts him to play. You then just have to wait for the one that does "just enough" to draw the false shot. Or, alternatively, send down a bad ball and watch the batters eyes light up and draw the false shot...

2. Aussies have a quality spin option they know they can rely on if the pace attack isn't getting the job done.

And then you can add:

3. Aussies have fielded better, in general. England have put down a lot of catches and it's hurt them big time, in both tests.

I don't think England have bowled too badly, excepting that they are reluctant to run a fuller length at times because they fear leaking runs. The fielding has been poor. And I won't write anything more about the wicket keeping selection process.

Actually, I probably will, because it irks me.

It's like a closed shop. Central contracts being part of a problem that should be a solution. I said three years ago that Robinson was the new McGrath. Too late now. If he had started out then, I believe he would have been. 35 wickets @ 20 is a snapshot of what they could have had.

Still, he wasn't fast enough. Neither was Alderman or McGrath.

 

[Pevenseagull]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59740346

Not good news for Archer and England

Such a shame

Archer's elbow seems to be this decade's 'van Basten's ankle'

 

[A1X]

I still can't understand how Burns plays with such low hands for someone brought up at The Oval. Unless the pitches are different there these days. I certainly would re-assess such a technique in Australia. Still.

These days the Oval tends to be a lower, slower wicket. The days of steepling bounce there are gone. That only really exists at Old Trafford these days.