Tony Meolas Loan Spell
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Well it shows we are getting to close to "will there ever be a boy born who can swim faster than a shark"
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An official apology to all Chinese.
- Thread starter Mo Gosfield
- Start date
They require you to personally apologise to all their people individually before it is accepted. See you soon!
Ninja Elephant
Doctor Elephant
- Feb 16, 2009
- 18,855
If a baby ever outswims a shark, I will accept that there was some degree of doping involved.
Ye Shiwen swam her final length faster than any length the men's gold medalist swam. That's the first time that's happened in Olympic history. That is why it's raised eyebrows. That is why they're not questioning some other girl. You should be able to understand that.
So.CalGull
Well-known member
There is a rather large point being missed here though, comparing Lochte to any other swimmer is a mute point.
Lochte is famous for going out fast on his weak strokes, he goes hard on fly and breast, resting on back and free, his idea is to scare the others twice during the race, once at the start (fly) slow it on back, push on breast, then coast on free. He has always raced like this, he has a personality of a cocky, entitled fella who uses his presence to play mind games.
Now the Chinese girl has a proven strong free, she, like all normal competitive swimmers builds during the race, a solid fly with a faster back into a hard breast into a bonkers free, this is the normal process for swimming races, breath often, and build. Yes she improved over 5 seconds on her PB, but you are talking about a long race, not 50 or 100 free, in a major event that she has been training then tapering for since the trials 8 weeks ago.
I was at the US trials in Omaha in June, and the different tapering and training techniques being used for this event is showing in the US results, the US has moved away from traditional training ideas to try and capitalize on things like altitude training and dry land work outs, by the looks of it, not so effective this year, Lochte has gained a ton of muscle weight due to his MMA/swim training, which has allowed him to freak people out by his online videos and physique.
Unfortunately, this has led to him having more muscle to move through the water, which shows in strokes such as back and free, which are best suited to the lighter more boyant swimmers, such as skinny Chinese girls.
If they were to have an a race over 50 or even 100, Lochte would easily win due to the nature of the race and the mind set race plan required, but over 400m it is like comparing apples and oranges, very different races, swum by very different people with very different game plans.
Lochte is famous for going out fast on his weak strokes, he goes hard on fly and breast, resting on back and free, his idea is to scare the others twice during the race, once at the start (fly) slow it on back, push on breast, then coast on free. He has always raced like this, he has a personality of a cocky, entitled fella who uses his presence to play mind games.
Now the Chinese girl has a proven strong free, she, like all normal competitive swimmers builds during the race, a solid fly with a faster back into a hard breast into a bonkers free, this is the normal process for swimming races, breath often, and build. Yes she improved over 5 seconds on her PB, but you are talking about a long race, not 50 or 100 free, in a major event that she has been training then tapering for since the trials 8 weeks ago.
I was at the US trials in Omaha in June, and the different tapering and training techniques being used for this event is showing in the US results, the US has moved away from traditional training ideas to try and capitalize on things like altitude training and dry land work outs, by the looks of it, not so effective this year, Lochte has gained a ton of muscle weight due to his MMA/swim training, which has allowed him to freak people out by his online videos and physique.
Unfortunately, this has led to him having more muscle to move through the water, which shows in strokes such as back and free, which are best suited to the lighter more boyant swimmers, such as skinny Chinese girls.
If they were to have an a race over 50 or even 100, Lochte would easily win due to the nature of the race and the mind set race plan required, but over 400m it is like comparing apples and oranges, very different races, swum by very different people with very different game plans.
So.CalGull
Well-known member
Because she had an easier race, with a tailored game plan that focused soley on a bonkers free leg. She wold not beat any of them in a straight race over 25, 50 or 100. Some people train for specific events. Watch her swim from the trials, then the final race and you will see she has seriously changed her approach to the last leg, she was breathing about 25% less than before, at a time when her body is screaming for air, which is causing her body to "panic swim" which means the muscles contract become become harder, which then "allegedly" propels you through the water quicker. A new train of thought they may or not work. The doping tests in swimming are huge, they random sample all the time, if they are cheating, they will get caught, swimming has to much to lose, all sports watch cycling and see the negative effect is has, and swimming in particular work hard to avoid the bad publicity.
Good points well made SCG. A lot of people seem to want to string her up based on one article. Yes, she was faster than Lochte over the final 50m but she was slower than some of the guys he beat. Lochte was easing up as he'd already won, whereas it was her strongest leg.
Do they have biological passports in swimming, So.Cal?
Easy to say all sports watch cycling and their doping problems, and want to avoid that, but cycling is at the head of the game as far as anti doping is concerned.
Just done some research, the biological passports in swimming started as a test a year ago and are still running. Cycling on the other hand has had biological passports since 2008. Maybe FINA thought the best way to avoid the bad publicity was not to test as rigorously as cycling does? I am playing devils advocate a bit here as I know full well swimming is tested heavily, especially compared to Football, Tennis, Golf, Rugby, all American Sports etc etc. Just seems a bit silly to me to claim that swimming is that clean when freakish results are being achieved.
Regardless of your reasoning, it's the first time it's ever happened, so that's going to make people wonder.
good one. We're not in the 1950s, if that works as a technique they'll all do it.That's just such nonsense. Athletes have been cheating for decades, and still do, and loads aren't being caught. They're not even testing the athletes outside of competitions, so those athletes can stop taking their drugs at the appropriate time to show as clear. A lot of methods of cheating are also not detectable. If the testing was so good, why is it that athletes continue to cheat? If it was that good, all the athletes would know they have to be clean and we'd get no positive results.
Cycling had a worse reputation than swimming, but regardless, China won't give a stuff whether swimming needs to avoid bad publicity in the west.
I don't want her strung up. If she is on drugs I wouldn't attach any blame to her, she wouldn't have had a choice. I blame the complacency of the anti-doping committee.
Have you got a link to these times?
As I wait for you to provide evidence of that:
http://www.news.com.au/sport/london-olympics/chinese-schoolgirl-shiwen-ye-swimming-faster-than-men/story-fndpu6dv-1226438946789
"What has caused the world to raise its eyebrows was Ye swam the final lap of her freestyle leg in the 400IM (in 28.93sec) faster than men's champion Ryan Lochte (29.10sec), and faster than Michael Phelps."
"No man, bar the greatest swimmer and Olympian of all time Phelps, has ever swum a lap of the 400IM faster than Ye."
"It is the first time in Olympic history a woman has swam faster in any lap than a male gold medallist."
Yet people here think it's surprising we are suspicious.
from the article above:
John Leonard, executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association, told The Guardian that the 16-year-old's freestyle leg in her IM swim was simply "impossible".
"The one thing I will say is that history in our sport will tell you that every time we see something, and I will put quotation marks around this, 'unbelievable', history shows us that it turns out later on there was doping involved," Leonard told the British newspaper.
"That last 100m was reminiscent of some old East German swimmers, for people who have been around a while.
"It was reminiscent of the 400m individual medley by a young Irish woman in Atlanta."
"Any time someone has looked like superwoman in the history of our sport they have later been found guilty of doping," he said, adding: "I have been around swimming for four-and-a-half decades now.
I'd bet a very large sum that she's been cheating.
John Leonard, executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association, told The Guardian that the 16-year-old's freestyle leg in her IM swim was simply "impossible".
"The one thing I will say is that history in our sport will tell you that every time we see something, and I will put quotation marks around this, 'unbelievable', history shows us that it turns out later on there was doping involved," Leonard told the British newspaper.
"That last 100m was reminiscent of some old East German swimmers, for people who have been around a while.
"It was reminiscent of the 400m individual medley by a young Irish woman in Atlanta."
"Any time someone has looked like superwoman in the history of our sport they have later been found guilty of doping," he said, adding: "I have been around swimming for four-and-a-half decades now.
I'd bet a very large sum that she's been cheating.
Can't find the stats for individual lap times. Mentioned on Star Sports and in a BBC article:
"Suspicions over Ye's performance were heightened when it was pointed out that in the final 50m of her race she swam faster than the winner of the men's race, Ryan Lochte.
However, her world-record time was still 23 seconds slower than Lochte's winning time, and several of Lochte's competitors were faster than her over the final 50m."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19062639
Thanks. It's these things that are making us jump to conclusions, so it's quite relevant.
If it was a US or British athlete we were discussing, the question would be whether the athlete had gone rogue and found a trainer that's given them drugs. With a Chinese athlete though I can't imagine she'd have done it off her own back - the Chinese are either doping a load of their female swimmers, or they're not. And that's part of the problem, the Chinese team have shown they're happy to cheat en-mass, and I'm sure they'd have learnt how to do it without detection if they wanted.