Abortion Law

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sorry, don't agree and I think for once Parliament made the right decision.

IMO if we actually want to reduce the number of abortions we should follow the Dutch example and make sure that sex education is a statutory part of the curriculum. Of course, Mr Cormac Murphy O'Connor and his ilk won't like that either.

I agree on the sex education issue.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

IMO if we actually want to reduce the number of abortions we should follow the Dutch example and make sure that sex education is a statutory part of the curriculum. Of course, Mr Cormac Murphy O'Connor and his ilk won't like that either.

For what it's worth both of our kids (now 23 & 20) said this about sex education when they were at school in Billingshurst. Our daughter was particularly amazed at the ignorance about contraception amongst her peers, even through to the sixth form.

 

[Dandyman]

I've always admired your cogent arguments Dandyman but not here I'm sorry to say. Could you please supply evidence why this is ONLY a religious issue. As you know I am religious but I an not totally anti-abortion because to be so ignores the reality of the world we live in. You talk about foetus not surviving before 24 weeks and you are right but will that be the case in the future? Secondly you say there are very very few abortions late term. Again I would agree with you. However, that misses the point. The point, as ELS made, is that on a scan today you can see a living being inside a woman's body at 16 weeks and anyone who is a father or a mother finds it hard to come to terms with a being like that having their life terminated when sometimes the only reason is that the mother or father can't be bothered.

Yes I know this is not the whole story andf you may pertinantly ask whether it is fair to bring an unwanted child into the world but I ask you, should you be given that decision?

I take a totalyl non-religious position on this and say I think it should be reduced but with exceptions. Ones that spring to mind are serious mental disablilty, very low chance of surviving, results of rape etc but I leave that up to better people than me to draw the boundaries.

I can respect that point of view but...

My comment about religion was largely based on the fact that those cabinet members who voted to restrict abortion access are all Roman Catholic, that the campaign to restrict abortion rights is largely lead by people with rigid relious views be they the head of the RC church in England, Ann Widdicombe or the more right-wing elements in the Jewish or Muslim faiths.

A foetus at 16 weeks is not capable of living outside the womb and only a limited number are capable of doing so at less than 24 weeks - there is a significant improvement in survival rates at 25 and 26 weeks.

As I posted above the debate about weeks is IMO a red herring. Any real view on this should be lead by the GMC and other experts. The attack on 24 weeks was by people who in general are for a total ban but know that the majority of the British public disagree with them.

The best way of reducing late term abortion I wouid suggest is to ensure that where a termination is requested the operation is carried out as quickly as possible and not delayed by lack of funding or the minority of anti-choice GPs, that we have proper sex education in schools including contraceptive advice and that we avoid stigmatising those often vulnerable women who do seek late term terminations.

 

[Buzzer]

This is one of those topics that for me is impossible to find a consensus. I've got my opinions (I'm very anti-abortion for what it's worth) but don't feel comfortable nor qualified to debate this with people who are pro-abortion.
All I can say is my conscience says it's wrong but then again I'm never gonna be in the position of a woman who can't afford to have another child, a 16 year old rape victim or whatever.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sorry for the way I replied but easıer... comments ın CAPS

I can respect that point of view but...

My comment about religion was largely based on the fact that those cabinet members who voted to restrict abortion access are all Roman Catholic, that the campaign to restrict abortion rights is largely lead by people with rigid relious views be they the head of the RC church in England, Ann Widdicombe or the more right-wing elements in the Jewish or Muslim faiths. - YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT THE DETAILS OF THIS PARTICUALRLY CONTEXT THAN I DO SO I BOW TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE HERE. HOWEVER THE ISSUE IN ISOLATION IS ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD FIGHT BATTLES BECAUSE WE DISLIKE THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT WAS BROUGHT BUT FIGHT THE ISSUE ITSELF... I HOPE THAT'S CLEAR.. I DO RAMBLE

A foetus at 16 weeks is not capable of living outside the womb and only a limited number are capable of doing so at less than 24 weeks - there is a significant improvement in survival rates at 25 and 26 weeks. - AGAIN NOW THE FIGURES SUPPORT YOU BUT NO DOCTOR WILL OPENLY SAY THAT THIS WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE CASE AND IN THE CASE OF LIFE OF HUMAN BEINGS DO WE ONLY CONSIDER THE MAJORITY? HAVING SEEN THE SCANS OF MY OWN DAUGHTER I CAN'T AGREE WITH YOU HERE.

As I posted above the debate about weeks is IMO a red herring. Any real view on this should be lead by the GMC and other experts. The attack on 24 weeks was by people who in general are for a total ban but know that the majority of the British public disagree with them.

The best way of reducing late term abortion I wouid suggest is to ensure that where a termination is requested the operation is carried out as quickly as possible and not delayed by lack of funding or the minority of anti-choice GPs, that we have proper sex education in schools including contraceptive advice and that we avoid stigmatising those often vulnerable women who do seek late term terminations.

- THAT'S INTERESTING. ALTHO I AGREE THAT SEX EDUCATION NEEDS TO BE BETTER DEALT WITH I THINK YOU ARE BEING TOO OPTIMISTIC. SEX EDUCATION IS FAR BETTER THAN IT WAS 30 YEARS AGO BUT YET ABORTIONS HAVE INCREASED AS FOR YOUR FIRST POINT THAT DOES NOT ANSWER THE FEARS THAT ELS AND I HAVE... HOW LONG IT TAKES TO DO AN ABORTION IS NEITHER HERE NOR THERE IN MANY CASES. A NURSE FRIEND OF MINE TOLD ME OF MANY CASES OF YOUNG MOTHERS TORN AS TO WHETHERE TO KEEP THE BABY OR NOT AND ALMOST LEFT IT TOO LATE......THIS IS THE COMMUNITY THAT WORRIES ME...EDUCATION DOES NOT GURANTEE LEARNING AND RESPONSIBILITY... UNFORTUNATELY ONLY LAW CAN GO SOME WAY TO ACHIEVING THIS.

 

[Nibble]

Check out the anti-abortion website. I once got into a debate about abortion on there. I am pro-choice. They kindly emailed me a picture of an aborted foetus. Very pleasant folk.

I'm not sure about the how long to leave it question, however I think a choice is a good thing.

 

[Buzzer]

Check out the anti-abortion website. I once got into a debate about abortion on there. I am pro-choice. They kindly emailed me a picture of an aborted foetus. Very pleasant folk.

I'm not sure about the how long to leave it question, however I think a choice is a good thing.

Nibble.
Please don't try and paint the anti-abortion lobby as the nutters or extremists in this. There are strongly held views on both sides and it's about life and death. I've met some pretty objectionable pro-abortionists too. I've seen pictures of (apparently real) foetus ear-rings worn by a feminist who argued that the foetus was not a person , just a piece of discarded body matter.
I can understand why the anti lobby use such grim images. The anti-hunting, anti-vivisection, anti-death penalty and anti-fur trade lobbies all have groups who use these tactics.
I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of abortion but let's not get hysterical please.

 

[Nibble]

Abortion time limit cuts defeated
Moves to cut the abortion time limit from 24 weeks have been resoundingly rejected by MPs after a highly-charged Commons debate.

The Government also saw off cross-party dissent to push through new rules so doctors do not have to consider the need for a father when approving fertility treatment.

Tory-led proposals, backed by some Labour MPs including Cabinet ministers, for new abortion limits of 12, 16, 20 or 22 weeks were all defeated in a series of free votes.

Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly, Defence Secretary Des Browne and Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy, all Roman Catholics, voted for the lowest limit available.

The 22-week proposal, which had the personal support of Tory leader David Cameron, came the closest to success but was still comfortably rejected by 233 votes to 304, majority 71.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown voted against any reduction after insisting there was no medical evidence to justify a change in the law.

Pro-life campaigners said Parliament had defied overwhelming public opinion. They vowed to continue to fight for later abortions to be outlawed.

Coordinator Ian Lucas said: "We are disappointed MPs have not seen fit to recognise the wishes of three-quarters of the population by lowering the time limit. This comes despite pleas from many MPs to recognise research which has shown that children younger than 24 weeks can survive.

"Regardless of reassurances of a free vote, Gordon Brown had clearly signalled his own preferences, thus providing many others with direction.

But Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris, one of the most vocal supporters of the existing limit, accused Pro-life MPs of using "made up statistics".

 

[Nibble]

Nibble.
Please don't try and paint the anti-abortion lobby as the nutters or extremists in this. There are strongly held views on both sides and it's about life and death. I've met some pretty objectionable pro-abortionists too. I've seen pictures of (apparently real) foetus ear-rings worn by a feminist who argued that the foetus was not a person , just a piece of discarded body matter.
I can understand why the anti lobby use such grim images. The anti-hunting, anti-vivisection, anti-death penalty and anti-fur trade lobbies all have groups who use these tactics.
I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of abortion but let's not get hysterical please.

Buzzer.
No-one is getting hysterical. I just told you what happened when I entered into a debate with this group. I am sure pro-abortion folk can be just as extreme. Please don't patronise me Buzzer.

 

[Buzzer]

Buzzer.
No-one is getting hysterical. I just told you what happened when I entered into a debate with this group. I am sure pro-abortion folk can be just as extreme. Please don't patronise me Buzzer.

A polite request for you to stop posting your prejudices about people. That's all. I resent the inference that anti-abortionists are weird or whatever. That's all.

Christ, you're a twat sometimes.

 

[Nibble]

A polite request for you to stop posting your prejudices about people. That's all. I resent the inference that anti-abortionists are weird or whatever. That's all.

Christ, you're a twat sometimes.

What prejudices. Don't start calling me a twat for telling you what happened when I debated with this particular group of quite frankly unpleasant individuals. I have given other considered opinions on the matter so don't be so quick to start flinging names around because you clearly have no understanding of the post or what I have written.

 

[Buzzer]

Yeah. Whatever.

Save it for Bars Mar. I can't be arsed arguing with you when you fly off the handle like this.

 

[Nibble]

Yeah. Whatever.

Save it for Bars Mar. I can't be arsed arguing with you when you fly off the handle like this.

I'll say one thing to you. I am not flying off the handle, You are the one who started using names. If you want to flounce, go for it. It is unusual for you to be this pious and ignorant.

 

[Dandyman]

A polite request for you to stop posting your prejudices about people. That's all. I resent the inference that anti-abortionists are weird or whatever. That's all.

Christ, you're a twat sometimes.

But it's ok to call someone a twat?

I'm not going to use the word "weird" but is it not the case that most people that are anti-choice on this issue (and I am excluding those that are debating the number of weeks but support the principle of choice) are motivated more by religious faith than anything else.

Abortions took place before legalisation, the issue will always be do you want them to be safe, legal and regulated or do you prefer a reversion to back street abortionists for the ordinary and overseas clinics for those that can afford them which was the situation before 1967.

 

[Buzzer]

But it's ok to call someone a twat?

It is when they make generalisations and heavily loaded comments about anti-abortionists. Sorry, perhaps that's out of order but he does seem to post this stuff to get a reaction.

I'm not going to use the word "weird" but is it not the case that most people that are anti-choice on this issue (and I am excluding those that are debating the number of weeks but support the principle of choice) are motivated more by religious faith than anything else.
Abortions took place before legalisation, the issue will always be do you want them to be safe, legal and regulated or do you prefer a reversion to back street abortionists for the ordinary and overseas clinics for those that can afford them which was the situation before 1967.

It's certainly the case that the most vocal anti-abortionists are religious but I'm not sure you can say that means that most anti-abortionists are motivated out of religious views. I'm not particularly religious but I have my views. I know of quite a few people like me who feel very uneasy about the whole thing. And even if I'm wrong about that and you're right then does it mean they have less of a right to those views just because it's borne from their religion?

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate and I'm certainly not trying to get involved in the debate. As I said earlier, I don't feel qualified enough to say someone is wrong for having an abortion.

My view is that an unborn child is still a human being and so abortion has all the connotations associated with taking a life. It is just my view though and I really don't have any answers to your questions.

Sorry Dandyman. It seems like I'm rambling. Is it any clearer. It feels like a cop-out of a reply.

 

[Nibble]

Oh Buzzer. firstly it wasn't a generalistaion, it was a comment about a few people I came into contact with. I have respect for your views on abortion and respect that you and your wife hold those views dear. I never slagged off anti-abortionists, just the group I talked with. So please remain calm so this doesn't turn into a binfest because I have no problem with your views.

 

[Marshy]

i would welcome a reduction from 24 to 20 weeks.

 

[Titanic]

Yes

34 53.13%
No

27 42.19%
I still can't form my own opinion, even on something important

34.69%

Yet again, parliament FAILS to represent the people.

 

[El Presidente]

It is sickening/disgraceful that there are so many abortions at the cost of the taxpayer.

The cost of not having them is far higher.

If you read the excellent book, Freakonomics, it shows that the biggest single factor in the reduction in crime in the USA is down to the introduction of legal abortions.

Unwanted children=delinquent children who grow up to be criminals.