102 Minutes That Changed America

[Collar Feeler]

I've seen every documentary and own so many DVDs about the conspiracy theories, all of it fascinates me. I'm only interested by the WTC though to be honest, the Pentagon "attack" is balls, the eye witnesses disagreed with each other about what size the plane was for one thing...

But why would those buildings collpase into their own footprint?! That's what I don't get, ok, the building collapsed and I can't see why it should. But we'll never know.

I'm similarly fascinated by people that actually believe these far fetched conspiracy theories.

Firstly it is not uncommon for witnesses to see different things and give entirely different accounts of what happened. In my line of work I see it all the time. Even more so when the situation you are dealing with is particularly impactive, stressful or serious. The human brain has an amazing capacity to change peoples perceptions of what happened and I have first hand experience of this on numerous occasions when I swear blind left was right or a man was a woman etc etc.

I imagine your brain seeing a large passenger jet travelling in excess of 500 miles per hour at ground level and smashing into the Pentagon may well surmise that it couldn't possibly be a jet plane and must have been something else. That is if at such a close distance it can actually make out the shape of a passenger jet travelling at that speed which I doubt you could. In any case there is no hard evidence I have seen that leads to any other conclusion other than terrorists flying aircraft into buildings and causing mass destruction.

The 2 WTC collapses are entirely feasible and I have seen countless studies and documentaries that prove it so. The towers both suffered fatal damage by the aircraft and when the damage reached a critical stage the floors simply collapsed onto the floor below causing a domino effect, that seems logical to me and i don't understand why people seem to think they should have toppled over sideways, why would they do that?? Besides they hardly collapsed into their own footprint, debris steel and fallout form the collapses was found several blocks away.

My last point is that hundreds if not thousands of people would have needed to be in the loop to pull of a self induced disaster on such a scale and that is quite simply ridiculous to consider and not expect even one of those involved to spill the beans over the last 8 years.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories! and based on little or no facts or evidence including choosing to ignore or make up fanciful evidence of their own.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

I'm similarly fascinated by people that actually believe these far fetched conspiracy theories.

Firstly it is not uncommon for witnesses to see different things and give entirely different accounts of what happened. In my line of work I see it all the time. Even more so when the situation you are dealing with is particularly impactive, stressful or serious. The human brain has an amazing capacity to change peoples perceptions of what happened and I have first hand experience of this on numerous occasions when I swear blind left was right or a man was a woman etc etc.

I imagine your brain seeing a large passenger jet travelling in excess of 500 miles per hour at ground level and smashing into the Pentagon may well surmise that it couldn't possibly be a jet plane and must have been something else. That is if at such a close distance it can actually make out the shape of a passenger jet travelling at that speed which I doubt you could. In any case there is no hard evidence I have seen that leads to any other conclusion other than terrorists flying aircraft into buildings and causing mass destruction.

The 2 WTC collapses are entirely feasible and I have seen countless studies and documentaries that prove it so. The towers both suffered fatal damage by the aircraft and when the damage reached a critical stage the floors simply collapsed onto the floor below causing a domino effect, that seems logical to me and i don't understand why people seem to think they should have toppled over sideways, why would they do that?? Besides they hardly collapsed into their own footprint, debris steel and fallout form the collapses was found several blocks away.

My last point is that hundreds if not thousands of people would have needed to be in the loop to pull of a self induced disaster on such a scale and that is quite simply ridiculous to consider and not expect even one of those involved to spill the beans over the last 8 years.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories! and based on little or no facts or evidence including choosing to ignore or make up fanciful evidence of their own.

Ok, I respect the thought you've put into the reply there and it's good to see someone actually giving thought and making good, valid points rather than just dismissing. Debate is good.

I understand what you say about the eye witnesses, there are many reasons why they might not have perfect recollection, and why it might be distorted. And that's fine, but I find it hard to believe. I am cynical, there's no question about that. But when a Boeing 737 crashes into one of the most guarded buildings in the world and people on the ground, watching the entire thing unfold, don't all see the same things, that seems off to me. But mainly because the evidence doesn't support what we were officially told. I speak now from my memory of Loose Change and other such conspiracy videos I watched a good year ago now, and my facts aren't perfect and I'm not quoting sources so I may be misquoting. But at some point, the official story was that the plane fly over the motorway on the Pentagon perimitter, and ripped 3 or 4 lampposts out of the ground before bouncing on the lawn and then smashing into the building. Ok, I'll deal with the lawn first because it was perfect. There are pictures to prove a plane can't possibly have hit it, it would have caused some kind of damage there, and none was done in the slightest, so that's crap for starters. Also, there was a plane crash once where a plane was unable to take off the runway properly, it couldn't stop either and just went straight off the end of the runway and a wing hit a lamppost, ripping the wing off and causing a massive fire. I know the speeds the plane going into the Pentagon was doing is so much faster than that plane was, but the effect would have been very similar, the wings would have been badly damaged by hitting a lamppost. Also, these posts were perfectly in tact, they were just pulled up from the ground. Could the velocity of the plane going past do that? I'm very dubious.
But we needn't be, just show us the footage! They've got video footage of that crash from all angles, they can just show us and end all the conspiracy. So why don't they? Because the videos probably fuel the conspiracies, not silence them.

The towers fell straight down into their own footprint. They were both hit by a plane (the first one far too high up for me to believe the entire building should collapse) and that caused immense damage, obviously it did. The fires, the structural damage, the sheer weight of impact. Obviously there was massive damage done. But why the collapse? The fires alone can't melt steel, that's a fact. There has to have been something else in the towers, I have seen all the molten-thermite demonstrations and you have to admit, it looks pretty similar to what was happening in the corners of the tower. The reactivity and the explosive power. Not to mention the fact that all 4 corners blew out seconds before the collapse reached that level. You could say that's the sheer weight of the collapse forcing the corners out, that's a pretty reasonable theory, though I'm not convinced personally. I don't understand the towers falling, having seen all the documentaries out there and watching all the experts argue with each other in every medium possible. It's just one of the many mysteries of 9/11, and we'll never know the full truth, sadly.
What do you make of WTC 7? Why do you think that collapsed? No plane hit it, and only 2 sides were visibly on fire. But, it collapsed?! Why?!

Also, why had Larry Silverstein a year before changed the insurance policy on the WTC? So that the towers were covered individually against the threat of a terrorist attack, meaning that if the towers were destroyed he would be paid out one each tower individually. That seems strange to me, maybe it's a coincidance, but it doesn't look right to me. Same with the fact that the WTC security camera network was being refurbished in the months before 9/11, so the cameras weren't recording at times at night. Strange, no?

You also raise a good point about how many people needed to be involved to pull this off, and it does make it so thoroughly unlikely. I'm not an idiot, obviously, I know that. I don't think the American Goverment did this to themselves, of course I don't. I'm not going to sit here and say they're to blame, or that this person or that person worked on the inside to get it all organised. But there is evidence to support the conspiracy theories, it might be circumstantial in many cases, and logic based. But it is there and it does make you think. I can't really do these theories justice because I haven't paid so much attention I can sit here and quote facts and sources, I don't care that much. 9/11 really interests me in so many ways, and one of the most is the sheer amazement at how many people died there, and believe me, I don't have any disrespect for these people at all, I am horrified at what they suffered.

 

[Cian]

Took about a week or so to really sink in what had happened.

Its taken 8 years so far for me and its still a case of "America got bombed" and nothing more... albeit living in this country does desensitise you to bombings a bit. Scale hasn't sunk in at all.

 

[Collar Feeler]

NE I'm not entirely sure where you're going with the Pentagon issue and the lamp-posts etc but the wings of a passenger jet are immensly strong and over engineered to take about 4 times more stress than they would normally encounter. Look on youtube for airliners crash landing and there are some examples of planes with wingtips etc hitting the deck on landing and remaining intact and sound. Hitting a few relatively flimsy lamp post tops is going to certainly cause some damage but nothing too serious and catastrophic. Loose Change is a prime example by the way of the film makers fitting the so called evidence to suit their case and conveniently ignoring or dismissing other corroborating evidence, almost none of it was backed up with any expert knowledge or input.

The steel in the towers didn't melt and no-one claims it did. However when it is under extreme pressure and already weakened by damage it will fail and buckle in the temperatures experienced in the WTC.

The Silverstein thing I have less knowledge of but given the towers had already been attacked by terrorists a few years earlier it seems a reasonable response.

I don't think the Americans told the whole truth however and agree that they have withheld large amounts of evidence and disclosure from the public domain. This doesn't change my opinion however that they were organised terrorist attacks and took place largely as we all witnessed

 

[RexCathedra]

Be thankful you don't share a country, as I do, whose immediate response was to find those responsible, ignore them, and spend a trillion dollars attacking someone else.

I've had former students in the last year -- six years after the fact -- ship out to Iraq full of piss and vinegar to get revenge for 9/11.

If Bush were to have been president on 7 December 1941, he probably would have bombed Swansea in retaliation.

 

[NMH]

RIP Robert Eaton.

Always remember, we lost a fellow fan and North Stand Chat poster that morning.

I remember chatting with the affable Robert in the matchday NSC chat room, and him mentioning his workplace. Watching the events unfolding when I woke up early (6 am) dozily watching the news, it dawned on me to worry about our comrade in Albion. I was hoping that helicopters would be airlifting people off the roofs, but that didn't happen.

 

[User removed 4]

RIP Robert Eaton.

Always remember, we lost a fellow fan and North Stand Chat poster that morning.

I remember chatting with the affable Robert in the matchday NSC chat room, and him mentioning his workplace. Watching the events unfolding when I woke up early (6 am) dozily watching the news, it dawned on me to worry about our comrade in Albion. I was hoping that helicopters would be airlifting people off the roofs, but that didn't happen.

were you in the states when it happened ??

 

[NMH]

were you in the states when it happened ??

Los Angeles, California.
Where 6 (CA), turns out to be 9 (in NY)

 

[Brighton till i die]

I'm kinda with you NE...i watched "Loose Change" last week while i was over in NYC and found it really interesting.

everything about that documentary added up...for those that havent seen it its well worth a watch.

 

[Easy 10]

when I swear blind left was right or a man was a woman etc etc.

I think we've all been there. Doesn't make it any easier to explain though.



Officer.

 

[User removed 4]

Los Angeles, California.
Where 6 (CA), turns out to be 9 (in NY)

are you still there ?

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

I thought the documentary 'the falling man' was excellent. Showed how the people that decided to jump (images) were taken out of the mainsteam news feeds. Examined what would make you take that decision and tried to identify the people that took this way out.

YouTube - 9/11 The Falling Man

The Falling Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Made me think of the Bethnal Green tube disaster, its cover up and then subsuquent conspiracy theorys that emerged saying that the panic was co ordinated in some manner by groups such as facists or jews. Things on this level would be hard to manipulate.

BBC - WW2 People's War - The Bethnal Green Tube Shelter Disaster

 

[Gazwag]

I spotted it by chance last week on anytime and watched it, three things that stood out.

Firstly when the second plane hit the sheer panic of the women holding the camera when it suddenly hit home it was an attack not an accident and she had to get out of her highrise as soon as she could.

Secondly, with live feeds going all around the world it was probably, in the eyes of a terrorist an almost prefect job which could only have been bettered had the two towers either collapsed straightaway or had toppled sideways.

And thirdly why we are and should still in Afganistan killing those bastards who's name it was done in.

 

[AlbionKebabs]

Some incredible never seen before footage from the ground in NY on 9/11 on The History Channel (Sky 529/530) at the moment, truly amazing what went on that day

Anyone know where i can watch 102 Minutes That Changed America now?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Have said it before so will say it again.

If anyone seriously believes that the US government had anything whatsoever to do with 9/11, a feat so staggering in its complexity to accomplish, much of it in front of the worlds gaze should ask themselves a simple question.

If they were capable of mass murder of thousands of Americans and consequently thousands and thousands of innocent Iraquis not to mention hundreds of British and US and coalition personell do you not think that the CIA might not have "found" some nerve gas or sarin or ANYTHING WHATSOFUCKING EVER in iraq?. If they cant even plant some WMD's when they are occupying the place then I find the idea of them colluding with the Elders of Zion and the Illuminati to engineer the biggest act of false flag terrorism in the history of mankind frankly risible.

Oh and BTW "loose change" has been completely and utterly debunked, but feel free to keep on keeping on.

 

[Arthur]

RIP Robert Eaton.

Always remember, we lost a fellow fan and North Stand Chat poster that morning.

I remember chatting with the affable Robert in the matchday NSC chat room, and him mentioning his workplace. Watching the events unfolding when I woke up early (6 am) dozily watching the news, it dawned on me to worry about our comrade in Albion. I was hoping that helicopters would be airlifting people off the roofs, but that didn't happen.

Was in NY just the other week (in fact when said documentary was on so I've not had chance to watch it yet). Was surprised given what the Americans are like that they haven't made more of the Ground Zero site. Not really sure what I was expecting to be honest, but it was all a bit underwhelming if I'm being honest. Just hope the replacement pays a better tribute to those that died that day.

Took this pic.

Twitpic - Share photos on Twitter

 

[Brighton till i die]

Oh and BTW "loose change" has been completely and utterly debunked, but feel free to keep on keeping on.

debunked

 

[Brightonfan1983]

I've seen every documentary and own so many DVDs about the conspiracy theories, all of it fascinates me. I'm only interested by the WTC though to be honest, the Pentagon "attack" is balls, the eye witnesses disagreed with each other about what size the plane was for one thing...

But why would those buildings collpase into their own footprint?! That's what I don't get, ok, the building collapsed and I can't see why it should. But we'll never know.

The BBC did a very interesting programme on why the buildings collapsed in such and such a way and why therefore conspiracy theories were misplaced. Again. It was a stand-alone doc, very good.

 

[Brightonfan1983]

...

 

[Gazwag]

But why would those buildings collpase into their own footprint?! That's what I don't get, ok, the building collapsed and I can't see why it should. But we'll never know.

Maybe they were designed that way, after all when they were built, as the tallest in the world, surely the architect forsaw the possibilty of a collapse which would be far "safer" going straight down than to topple over destroying many other buildings in the process.