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[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places



hart's shirt

hart's shirt

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2003
10,845
Kitbag in Dubai
BadFish said:
Emotions are running high, perhaps we should all just take a breath and a few minures before posting and calm down a bit!!
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Occasionally I feel certain threads should have suggested maximum daily posting limits for users to protect themselves and others, and for NSC unity.

It's usually where there's more heat than light generated, a lack of civility shown to other contributors, or where a few monopolize the discussion.

Ideally it should be a self-imposed restraint as I always like to think most people on NSC would know when they're close to stepping over the line.

It is possible to robustly argue and fundamentally disagree whilst remaining civil, courteous and respectful of differing opinions.

At times like these, it's much more important that we are useful than just being right.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
54,655
Faversham
hart's shirt said:
Occasionally I feel certain threads should have suggested maximum daily posting limits for users to protect themselves and others, and for NSC unity.

It's usually where there's more heat than light generated, a lack of civility shown to other contributors, or where a few monopolize the discussion.

Ideally it should be a self-imposed restraint as I always like to think most people on NSC would know when they're close to stepping over the line.

It is possible to robustly argue and fundamentally disagree whilst remaining civil, courteous and respectful of differing opinions.

At times like these, it's much more important that we are useful than just being right.
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Which is why I backed down.

And extended apologies to anyone not directly in my flames who I have offended.
 






O

oldboyroy

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2009
6,046
born and bred in Eastbourne but now live in West M
The gathering in Bordesley Green in Birmingham yesterday was due to false information of a planned protest by far right protesters which passed peacefully apart from sporadic incidents where the group split into smaller groups. In nearby Yardley, a pub patron was assaulted outside while having a cigarette and further criminal damage caused to 2 vehicles in the Stechford area and although no arrests were made, police are using cctv images to hopefully, bring the offenders to justice.
 




Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

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Jul 23, 2003
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hart's shirt said:
Occasionally I feel certain threads should have suggested maximum daily posting limits for users to protect themselves and others, and for NSC unity.

It's usually where there's more heat than light generated, a lack of civility shown to other contributors, or where a few monopolize the discussion.

Ideally it should be a self-imposed restraint as I always like to think most people on NSC would know when they're close to stepping over the line.

It is possible to robustly argue and fundamentally disagree whilst remaining civil, courteous and respectful of differing opinions.

At times like these, it's much more important that we are useful than just being right.
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Spot on.

I don’t know who did the thread (un) bans last night (wasn’t me, went to bed after the Olympics) but I do know Bozza wants a warning before one is imposed.

So - those of you who have already squabbled will be thread banned if you do it again. As @Weststander said the three last night are normally decent posters so hopefully can crack on.

For anyone else deciding this is the place for a personal battle it’ll be one warning and out.

I personally think the above post hits the nail on the head. If you don’t have something new to add you don’t need to post.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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Books for Spellow Lane library crowdfunding, original target was 500 pounds........now stands at over 100k!
 


C

cunning fergus

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Jan 18, 2009
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Triggaaar said:
I'm aware of all the things you mention here, but I don't know how that references the murders that happened in Southport. What is it that the establishment is hiding. What is really the root cause of that, and the other violent crimes?
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Well you appear to be saying despite these examples of where we know the political/institutional Government (recent and historical) have covered up “the truth”; in some cases willing to allow innocent people to be jailed or die instead of be served natural justice, that when tricky issues arise connected to the already politically sensitive issues of immigration (legal or illegal) the same political/institutional establishment can be trusted to provide “the truth”.

I don’t, and neither do millions of others. The moons aligned on the Southport attack in a way that they haven’t before. Within a matter of days a soldier was violently stabbed outside his house (immediately not considered terrorism but mental illness), police officers violently attacked at Manchester airport (where only part of the story was first made public by the media). Then children in Southport were attacked and despite the 3 casualties the same mental illness not terrorism position was adopted.

People have been angry about immigration and it’s problems for ages, and people have been protesting about immigration issues for ages, the politicians (all flavours) know this, many of the protests have been non violent and therefore not of media interest. Violent attacks are dealt with in a particular way by politicians and media, the mental illness card has been over used, as we can tell by the Huw Edwards case.

Starmer and the political/institutional establishment have to lay the blame in these riots solely at the “far right” thugs, because otherwise they will have to unwind some of the complex problems relating to immigration and expose the political/institutional establishment to criticism. So like scandals in the past the truth will be suppressed, and we continue on a well travelled road of deceit and misinformation by the political/institutional establishment. That is how politics works in this country these days.
 




M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,454
Fiveways
Zeberdi said:
Firstly:

I think perhaps some of those following and commentating on it need to calm down a bit and fact check every tweet before posting it, not just for its content but who the Tweeter too is if possible. Secondly, no one is being ‘overun’ - the army will be brought in before that happens and emergency legislation introduced to allow the use of water canons (adding dye to the water canons can also tag protagonists) or, if really required, tear gas.

Secondly:

  • The proportion of people engaging violently in these riots are tiny - while they are widespread, each “protest” involves no more than a few hundred rioters.
  • Recognise therefore that Elon Musk, Trump, Farage’s BS about “civil war” is exactly that, BS. Recognise that they have a nefarious political agenda to not only destroy political opposition (because when there is no political opposition, people are ripe for convincing civil disobedience is the only recourse for change) but to undermine democratic governance.
  • Although it’s only August, like most ‘riot seasons’, it will fizzle out when the weather cools down and it starts raining
Thirdly:

We need to stop trying to legitimise racial violence by calling it a ‘political protest’. It’s no more motivated by political ideology than football hooliganism was motivated by the love of a particular football club. It is tribalistic, gratuitous and opportunistic ‘safety in numbers’ violence and criminal damage incited by a minority of far right agents provocateurs as mass demonstrations and riots/hooliganism has been for decades (except now, social media makes that easier) - The bulk of the violence is being committed by largely socially disaffected 20-40 yr olds who have been brainwashed by right wing twunts like Farage and Robinson into thinking asylum seekers and immigrants are the cause of all their pain and frustration. The same goes for members of the Muslim community engaging in violent behaviour too - lets not glorify that either as “a noble defence” - it’s the same British disaffected youth and sad fcuk vigilantes attracted to the violence, just with a different ethnicity.

Fifthly:

I believe most of these people will be caught - the main protagonists will likely already be known for other unrelated offences - not withstanding the thousands of minutes of online and mobile phone video data available, don’t underestimate the power of surveillance and tracking technology either. Facial recognition software is now operative throughout our major cities by both the police and private businesses. If anyone is on a police database anywhere, they will be likely matched. Sophisticated Facial recognition software can still recognise you if you wear hats, hoodies, sunglasses and masks.

Even with a balaclava, facial recognition can identify people based on the unique feature surrounding their eyes. Despite the obvious issues around civil liberties and reliability of technology, the advances on technology since 2011 riots are massive. ( It won’t be long before gait recognition technology has been developed as part of live cctv monitoring too!)
Don’t underestimate the power of pre-trial deals for turning State witness either - many of those not hiding behind masks, will be more than willing to ‘help police with their enquiries’ to avoid a harsher sentence.

Finally:

I applaud Starmer for the way he has responded so unequivocally to these riots. I do confess that as Shadow Opposition leader, I thought him weak and a bit vacuous tbh but he’s really gone up in my estimation 10 fold in recent days. None of these rioters will respond to threats but the ex-DPP is not kidding when he says the law will come down hard on these thugs.

TL;DR

Keep it in perspective, trust the police to deal with it, be responsible for your own fact-checking and ”if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs …you’ll be a Man, my son!”

​

​

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This is a great post, so great that I'm intrigued to know what the elusive fourth point is :smile:
 




London Pompous

London Pompous

Active member
Feb 16, 2008
660
cunning fergus said:
Well you appear to be saying despite these examples of where we know the political/institutional Government (recent and historical) have covered up “the truth”; in some cases willing to allow innocent people to be jailed or die instead of be served natural justice, that when tricky issues arise connected to the already politically sensitive issues of immigration (legal or illegal) the same political/institutional establishment can be trusted to provide “the truth”.

I don’t, and neither do millions of others. The moons aligned on the Southport attack in a way that they haven’t before. Within a matter of days a soldier was violently stabbed outside his house (immediately not considered terrorism but mental illness), police officers violently attacked at Manchester airport (where only part of the story was first made public by the media). Then children in Southport were attacked and despite the 3 casualties the same mental illness not terrorism position was adopted.

People have been angry about immigration and it’s problems for ages, and people have been protesting about immigration issues for ages, the politicians (all flavours) know this, many of the protests have been non violent and therefore not of media interest. Violent attacks are dealt with in a particular way by politicians and media, the mental illness card has been over used, as we can tell by the Huw Edwards case.

Starmer and the political/institutional establishment have to lay the blame in these riots solely at the “far right” thugs, because otherwise they will have to unwind some of the complex problems relating to immigration and expose the political/institutional establishment to criticism. So like scandals in the past the truth will be suppressed, and we continue on a well travelled road of deceit and misinformation by the political/institutional establishment. That is how politics works in this country these days.
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You keep forgetting to mention the scandal of lucrative contracts given to Tory donors Robert, such as this one.

https://goodlawproject.org/update/computacenter-laptops/
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
61,753
The Fatherland
cunning fergus said:
Well you appear to be saying despite these examples of where we know the political/institutional Government (recent and historical) have covered up “the truth”; in some cases willing to allow innocent people to be jailed or die instead of be served natural justice, that when tricky issues arise connected to the already politically sensitive issues of immigration (legal or illegal) the same political/institutional establishment can be trusted to provide “the truth”.

I don’t, and neither do millions of others. The moons aligned on the Southport attack in a way that they haven’t before. Within a matter of days a soldier was violently stabbed outside his house (immediately not considered terrorism but mental illness), police officers violently attacked at Manchester airport (where only part of the story was first made public by the media). Then children in Southport were attacked and despite the 3 casualties the same mental illness not terrorism position was adopted.

People have been angry about immigration and it’s problems for ages, and people have been protesting about immigration issues for ages, the politicians (all flavours) know this, many of the protests have been non violent and therefore not of media interest. Violent attacks are dealt with in a particular way by politicians and media, the mental illness card has been over used, as we can tell by the Huw Edwards case.

Starmer and the political/institutional establishment have to lay the blame in these riots solely at the “far right” thugs, because otherwise they will have to unwind some of the complex problems relating to immigration and expose the political/institutional establishment to criticism. So like scandals in the past the truth will be suppressed, and we continue on a well travelled road of deceit and misinformation by the political/institutional establishment. That is how politics works in this country these days.
Click to expand...
What's happened? Your dog-with-a-bone sarcastic style has disappeared and you've gone all 'tin foil hat'?
 


Ooh it’s a corner

Ooh it’s a corner

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2016
5,351
Nr. Coventry
oldboyroy said:
The gathering in Bordesley Green in Birmingham yesterday was due to false information of a planned protest by far right protesters which passed peacefully apart from sporadic incidents where the group split into smaller groups. In nearby Yardley, a pub patron was assaulted outside while having a cigarette and further criminal damage caused to 2 vehicles in the Stechford area and although no arrests were made, police are using cctv images to hopefully, bring the offenders to justice.
Click to expand...
Indeed - the pic I just saw on Midlands news was of that pub turned McDonalds at the back of Heartlands I think.

The whole thing of the past week is lunacy. The eejits/thugs attempting to terrorise swathes of people are causing thousands of pounds of damage and they really are too stupid to realise that we ALL end up paying for it.

Those poor families in Southport have had their grief hijacked by these stupid, stupid people.

I dread to think how the previous government would have dealt with a situation that they are primarily responsible for creating, with this swing to the political right over recent years and the appalling example they set of how to behave.
 


jcdenton08

jcdenton08

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Oct 17, 2008
12,908

Sigh. Female journalist forced off air in Birmingham.

Edit: just for clarity, not right wing thugs on this occasion, but by a Muslim gang wearing balaclavas shouting “Free Palestine”. Scary how they encircled the camera operator and journalist
 
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jackanada

jackanada

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2011
3,409
Brighton
cunning fergus said:
Well you appear to be saying despite these examples of where we know the political/institutional Government (recent and historical) have covered up “the truth”; in some cases willing to allow innocent people to be jailed or die instead of be served natural justice, that when tricky issues arise connected to the already politically sensitive issues of immigration (legal or illegal) the same political/institutional establishment can be trusted to provide “the truth”.

I don’t, and neither do millions of others. The moons aligned on the Southport attack in a way that they haven’t before. Within a matter of days a soldier was violently stabbed outside his house (immediately not considered terrorism but mental illness), police officers violently attacked at Manchester airport (where only part of the story was first made public by the media). Then children in Southport were attacked and despite the 3 casualties the same mental illness not terrorism position was adopted.

People have been angry about immigration and it’s problems for ages, and people have been protesting about immigration issues for ages, the politicians (all flavours) know this, many of the protests have been non violent and therefore not of media interest. Violent attacks are dealt with in a particular way by politicians and media, the mental illness card has been over used, as we can tell by the Huw Edwards case.

Starmer and the political/institutional establishment have to lay the blame in these riots solely at the “far right” thugs, because otherwise they will have to unwind some of the complex problems relating to immigration and expose the political/institutional establishment to criticism. So like scandals in the past the truth will be suppressed, and we continue on a well travelled road of deceit and misinformation by the political/institutional establishment. That is how politics works in this country these days.
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That's a long post, and to me mainly indicative that the trumpian/johnsonian tactics of making lying completely normal have worked.
We've just had 14 years of a government whose main playbook was to blame foreigners for all our ills, and an election where both sides completed to be hard on immigration. If the government just wanted an easy life then blaming immigration is the tried and tested play for any event.
Now addressing the structural inequality that has grown inexolerably since Thatcher and vastly accelerated under the recently departed government (a massive decrease in services, a massive increase in poverty, massive increase in debt, billionaires wealth multiplying several times over) is the truly honest play that won't happen and your scepticism would be best used researching why that is.
That these riots are instigated by right wing racists and their echo chamber which if you stick your head in has you believing most Muslim men devote their days to raping white girls and live in sharia law enclaves where whitey never goes and their crimes are covered up by the police should just be a f***ing fact. Starmer is right to call this out as the current primary problem.
 


L

Lenny Rider

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2010
5,807
hart's shirt said:
Occasionally I feel certain threads should have suggested maximum daily posting limits for users to protect themselves and others, and for NSC unity.

It's usually where there's more heat than light generated, a lack of civility shown to other contributors, or where a few monopolize the discussion.

Ideally it should be a self-imposed restraint as I always like to think most people on NSC would know when they're close to stepping over the line.

It is possible to robustly argue and fundamentally disagree whilst remaining civil, courteous and respectful of differing opinions.

At times like these, it's much more important that we are useful than just being right.
Click to expand...
Could any of us have thought when we were fighting shoulder to shoulder to save the Albion that years down the line non football matters would threaten our common bond and the unity we have as fans?

The democracy our forefathers fought so hard to maintain in WW2, let’s us all have opinions, and that’s a minefield in itself, because to quote Brian Cohen, ‘You’re all individuals”


Sometimes, myself included, we all need to remember why we are all here, The Albion and our love for them ⚽️❤️
 


A1X

A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
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O

oldboyroy

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2009
6,046
born and bred in Eastbourne but now live in West M
jcdenton08 said:

Sigh. Female journalist forced off air in Birmingham.

Edit: just for clarity, not right wing thugs on this occasion, but by a Muslim gang wearing balaclavas shouting “Free Palestine”. Scary how they encircled the camera operator and journalist
Click to expand...
Correct. No right wing involved. It was from mis information that right wing were going to protest and the locals gathered to protect their community. It is predominantly Asian in that area and previously living there, there was never any problem. Yes, the few that wandered off and caused sporadic trouble including the assault on a white guy outside the pub smoking, footage from some filming from cars( I presume) with a guy saying" this is wrong".
 
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DavidinSouthampton

DavidinSouthampton

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Jan 3, 2012
17,148
cunning fergus said:
Well you appear to be saying despite these examples of where we know the political/institutional Government (recent and historical) have covered up “the truth”; in some cases willing to allow innocent people to be jailed or die instead of be served natural justice, that when tricky issues arise connected to the already politically sensitive issues of immigration (legal or illegal) the same political/institutional establishment can be trusted to provide “the truth”.

I don’t, and neither do millions of others. The moons aligned on the Southport attack in a way that they haven’t before. Within a matter of days a soldier was violently stabbed outside his house (immediately not considered terrorism but mental illness), police officers violently attacked at Manchester airport (where only part of the story was first made public by the media). Then children in Southport were attacked and despite the 3 casualties the same mental illness not terrorism position was adopted.

People have been angry about immigration and it’s problems for ages, and people have been protesting about immigration issues for ages, the politicians (all flavours) know this, many of the protests have been non violent and therefore not of media interest. Violent attacks are dealt with in a particular way by politicians and media, the mental illness card has been over used, as we can tell by the Huw Edwards case.

Starmer and the political/institutional establishment have to lay the blame in these riots solely at the “far right” thugs, because otherwise they will have to unwind some of the complex problems relating to immigration and expose the political/institutional establishment to criticism. So like scandals in the past the truth will be suppressed, and we continue on a well travelled road of deceit and misinformation by the political/institutional establishment. That is how politics works in this country these days.
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Firstly, and this is not an “angry” post, I would have thought it is clear that the tragic murder of the three Southport girls had nothing to do with immigration. The alleged perpetrator was born in Cardiff and had not come over on one of the notorious boats last year, as had been widely and wrongly trumpeted at the time.

secondly, I think Starmer has made it abundantly clear that there is a difference between political protest and violent mindless thuggery. There have also been plenty of instances on the news of people being in the location of the riots saying the same: ”I think there are problems with immigration, but this is just mindless thuggery.”

it also seems to me abundantly clear from some of the TV pictures and reporting that plenty of people are just out for the sake of being able to have a go at some mindless violence, and would have reacted the same if the cause was about increasing rail fares or the price of pineapple juice.
 


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