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[Football] Yellow card consistency



JJ McClure

Go Jags
Jul 7, 2003
11,105
Hassocks
For the Arsenal player’s second yellow the ref was conned by the Palace player. There was no shirt pull. These things will happen all the time football players are cheating scumbags. Could easily have been the other way around in another match, so tough. The first yellow was fully justified imo. The commentators tried a bit of whataboutery basis him wasting 8 seconds and the teammate who gave him the ball taking 15 seconds. That was another deliberate attempted conning of the ref. They won’t fall for that because it will lead to 10 players all wasting 10 seconds instead of anyone taking a throw. I think the new guidelines are working well. The atmosphere on the pitch is improving. It will just take some more time for all thicko players to get it.
Absolutely, the 8 seconds thing that the commentator and Arteta post match were going on about is irrelevant, collectively Arsenal took nearly 30 seconds for a throw in and Tomiyasu just happened to be the player booked for it as they played pass the parcel with the ball.
 




Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,450
Oxton, Birkenhead
Nothings perfect and human error is part of the game. Agreed. But showing down the game by kicking a ball away or throwing it away or standing in front of a free kick are unarguable and not open to interpretation. Nor is a player waving an imaginary yellow card.

Booking Gross was the correct decision, but all I'm asking is was it applied universally this weekend? If not, why not? What possible excuse could a ref have for missing it if these are the new rules? It was applied to the very letter of the law in our game to the point that there were eight yellow cards. Did this happen in other games?
Not sure. I don’t doubt things were likely missed but my concern is that this is then used to undermine the new rules. The question I would ask is overall is our game better or worse for the new guidelines ?
I'm not arguing against the change in the recommended approach.
The reality is that unconscious bias is a factor in Premier League officiating.

I agree with the changes, but recognise that consistency is the biggest challenge in the division.
Unconscious bias will lead to 14 clubs seeing this new approach executed more precisely than the other 6, in my opinion.

Perhaps. There didn’t seem to be any big club bias last night though. Arsenal were dealt with pretty ruthlessly by the referee.
 




Couldn't Be Hyypia

We've come a long long way together
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Nov 12, 2006
16,716
Near Dorchester, Dorset
Not sure. I don’t doubt things were likely missed but my concern is that this is then used to undermine the new rules. The question I would ask is overall is our game better or worse for the new guidelines ?


Perhaps. There didn’t seem to be any big club bias last night though. Arsenal were dealt with pretty ruthlessly by the referee.
Totally better for the new rules (not guidelines). As long as it is applied consistently. Super stringent in our game, I would guess less so in others?
 


Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,770
Fiveways
Didn’t watch last night, but it isn’t being applied consistently, see Chelsea vs West Ham, and wasn’t on Saturday either in our game.

As I said at the time, anything we can do to stop the Villa’s, Brentford’s and Newcastle’s time wasting is positive, but on Saturday Maddeley seemed to be doing this at the expense of allowing blatant foul play.

The referee’s number one priority should always be player safety.
I agree with your point about player safety being the priority.
I also agree that stamping out the Villa timewasting is a welcome development.
I thought Maddeley was good, and am not sure which/how many incidents you're referring to. The Dawson aggressive clatter through Enciso was the only one I really remembered. We were in front of that, and to me it looked like an orange.
 




Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,450
Oxton, Birkenhead
Totally better for the new rules (not guidelines). As long as it is applied consistently. Super stringent in our game, I would guess less so in others?
My guess would be that some things were just missed. I think it unlikely that some refs adhered to the new guidelines in their entirety and others didn’t in their entirety. In our game the ref clamped down early which is probably key. Player co-operation will also play a part and refs may need to be stronger when there are concerted attempts to undermine their authority.
 


Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
12,113
Not sure. I don’t doubt things were likely missed but my concern is that this is then used to undermine the new rules. The question I would ask is overall is our game better or worse for the new guidelines ?


Perhaps. There didn’t seem to be any big club bias last night though. Arsenal were dealt with pretty ruthlessly by the referee.
Dismissing unconscious bias, isn't the answer though is it?

Your question "Is our game better or worse with the new guidelines" is easy to answer if you ignore it.
Less so if you don't.

Our game will benefit far more from more consistency than it will from more yellow cards.
 


Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,770
Fiveways
I watched our game on Saturday and was struck, like most of us, by the yellow cards given for time wasting. Harsh, but "refs clamping down" and consistently applied to both sides.

Ok. I'll accept that. And in a few months, all teams will be dealing with yellow card accumulation suspensions, but at least we'll have stamped out standing in front of the ball, kicking or throwing the ball away and so on.

This only works though if it is consistently applied. Those who got to watch other Prem games this weekend, was it? Did big club players get away with it? Did the snide clubs (I'm looking at you Palace and Villa) avoid punishment? Were refs consistent from game to game?
You're not going to get a perfect consistency on this between games. You probably won't get it through the entire season. The rules are there to change behaviour and the earlier games in the season are there for refs to demonstrate that they're applying the new rule(s). I think all we can really hope for is consistency within a game, and a broader consistency across each match day.
You're right about suspensions. There will be plenty.
 




Neville's Breakfast

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May 1, 2016
13,450
Oxton, Birkenhead
Dismissing unconscious bias, isn't the answer though is it?

Your question "Is our game better or worse with the new guidelines" is easy to answer if you ignore it.
Less so if you don't.

Our game will benefit far more from more consistency than it will from more yellow cards.
But you can’t have consistency from referees anymore than you can have it from players. They aren’t robots.
 


Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,450
Oxton, Birkenhead
Partey for Arsenal last night waved the imaginary card around and didn't get booked for it, but last week MaCallister did as did another player. We just want consistency.
I don’t think the ref saw the Partey incident. I thought he would be booked as well but when the camera took in the ref he was looking elsewhere. It happens. You can’t expect them to have eyes on 22 players at all times.
 


Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
12,113
But you can’t have consistency from referees anymore than you can have it from players. They aren’t robots.

Do you believe that Premier league referreing inconsistency evens itself out across all clubs over a season?
i.e. unconscious bias is not a factor?
 




Neville's Breakfast

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May 1, 2016
13,450
Oxton, Birkenhead
Do you believe that Premier league referreing inconsistency evens itself out across all clubs over a season?
i.e. unconscious bias is not a factor?
No, not necessarily. The longer the sample (in time) perhaps there is some evening out but that doesn’t necessarily occur within a season and it is statistically possible for a club to be on the wrong side of enough decisions for it to have an impact. It’s very difficult to prove either way though which is the reason I am not convinced. Supporters of non big six clubs will tend to be of that view and will re-enforce each other’s opinion. If you go to big six forums though you will read just as many accusations of bias against their team as you do on here. It’s the nature of football support.
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,622
Do you believe that Premier league referreing inconsistency evens itself out across all clubs over a season?
i.e. unconscious bias is not a factor?
I mean, you're right. Ref's whether on a pitch or in a VAR studio are terrified of Klopp, Guardiola etc, and not so terrified of De Zerbi, Hodgson, Frank etc and the leak this has into their decision making is painfully obvious to anyone who watches PL football.

But the way I see it, the big clubs will get 55 / 45 on the old rules, and 55 / 45 on the new rules, so I don't see how this really changes anything
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,622
No, not necessarily. The longer the sample (in time) perhaps there is some evening out but that doesn’t necessarily occur within a season and it is statistically possible for a club to be on the wrong side of enough decisions for it to have an impact. It’s very difficult to prove either way though which is the reason I am not convinced. Supporters of non big six clubs will tend to be of that view and will re-enforce each other’s opinion. If you go to big six forums though you will read just as many accusations of bias against their team as you do on here. It’s the nature of football support.
But as a club, we've dealt with fan bases of other clubs in transfer dealings over the last few years. Some fan bases are relatively sensible and pragmatic. Some are utterly deluded. We know this to be true, so I don't think you can compare the opinions of say, Man Utd or Leeds fans, to say, Brentford or Forest. (I'm averaging out there of course).

The point is that big 6 referring bias is quite obvious to most I think and VAR is just another mechanism by which the "right decision" can be found for "the right club"
 




Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Oct 20, 2022
6,932
The referee’s number one priority should always be player safety.
Absolutely but that shouldn’t have included red carding MacAllister at the weekend- I suspect there will be more obvious errors like that this season with some Refs apparently interpreting the new rules as a message to ‘get tough’ and VAR being even more reticent in overturning what in this case was a clear and obvious error.

Re timewasting specifically- The only difference is the infringements will be more plentiful - it‘s a shift in balance I think between deliberate timewasting in the latter parts of the match by teams in the lead ( often incidentally the same teams who sit in a deep block to settle for one point in other matches) or the ref himself breaking up the flow of the game more as a result in the increase of yellow cards.

Tbh - I am happy to see a shift to the latter we are good enough to beat most teams fairly without cheating by wasting time with fake fouls etc (or likewise resorting to a low block when we’ve scored one goal). Mitoma proved at the weekend that running through defenders rather than playing for the foul ( or worse signing for a card as he did once before) is far more conducive to winning a match and scoring goals.

Imo - The new rules will benefit us - it will make it easier to beat teams like head trauma Fulham etc
 


Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
12,113
No, not necessarily. The longer the sample (in time) perhaps there is some evening out but that doesn’t necessarily occur within a season and it is statistically possible for a club to be on the wrong side of enough decisions for it to have an impact. It’s very difficult to prove either way though which is the reason I am not convinced. Supporters of non big six clubs will tend to be of that view and will re-enforce each other’s opinion. If you go to big six forums though you will read just as many accusations of bias against their team as you do on here. It’s the nature of football support.

Whilst I agree that all football fans focus on the injustices against their team, the reality is that referees are human beings who react to a number of factors.

Referees are under a huge amount of pressure during each game.
Any ref who is susceptible to external pressures is more likely to give an edge to higher profile teams.

I think it's completely understandable that big bias happens.
I believe it is a constant factor in the premier league
 


Greg Bobkin

Silver Seagull
May 22, 2012
16,031
There's a consistency problem, yes, but there's also possibly a communications (or intellectual one too). Players should've been informed about the tougher line that refs were going to take about timewasting, dissent, etc, so should adapt their game accordingly. Clearly they are only human and it will be tough to instantly change the way they play the game but, in some ways, they only have themselves to blame for cards.

The Arsenal fella last night was harshly done on the second yellow, though – there was nothing in it at all. However, if he/they didn't faff around at the throw-in, he'd have stayed on the pitch!
 


Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
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Jul 23, 2003
37,339
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
Pascal kicked the ball away to avoid a quick throw in though, deserved yellow with the new laws.

Pedro got booked for standing over the ball, be interesting to see if this law is enforced when others do it, from what you say it wasn’t for Liverpool.
I started a similar thread to this ('wouldn't have been a card / goal / pen last season) and made the point that with the exception of adding on the exact time taken for a goal celebration there are no new laws. Referees have merely been instructed to interpret the existing ones more strictly. Quite right too.

West Ham v Chelsea had 7 yellows, including two for one player and 8 mins of stoppage time in the second half. Very, very similar to ours.

Generally, however, I agree with the OP. Because this is down to an instruction by both EFL and PGMOL and NOT a law change, each referee will interpret slightly differently.
 




Berty23

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2012
3,643
I will keep banging this drum until it happens.

Football needs to copy hockey. In hockey you can do the self pass. Ie spot the ball and then dribble it away. If a player makes any attempt to play the ball without “backing off” 5 yards then they are sent to the sin bin. It makes the game so much faster and the fouled player is not effectively out of the game because he does not need to be marked. This made hockey so much quicker and players soon learn they can’t engage.
 


Acker79

Well-known member
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Nov 15, 2008
31,921
Brighton
I wrote this back in July when the new rules/approaches were being discussed then:

It'll be like the season thy clamped down on holding at corners. There will be a speight of cards early in the season, then sections (players/pundits/fans) will overegg the inconsistency, and/or the large number of people being sent off and how wrong it is to punish them when it's in response to a refereeing "mistake" (possibly an actual mistake, but, more likely, just a difference of opinion on a subjective incident) and it will gradually fade out.

Match week two, and the inconsistency calls have started. We've even got our first sending off!
 


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