[Football] Women feeling unsafe at football matches

[Neville's Breakfast]

I know Crodo's doing his usual fishing trip, but I'll bite anyway!


Going back to the original BBC article, here's a quote from Sarah Aitchison, Sutton United's Her Game Too club ambassador.

'Sarah also highlights how hard it is tackling a football culture which "has misogyny ingrained deeply into it".

"There's a particular chant where it talks about how wonderful the town or city is, because it's full of female body parts," she says. "To a lot of men, that would just seem like a harmless bit of banter.

"But actually, when you're a woman and you hear a lot of men chanting something that basically reduces you to a list of sexualized body parts, it feels quite intimidating."'

The last time I heard that particular chant sung was by Southend United fan Alison Moyet in 1996 on Fantasy Football League with Baddiel, Skinner and Millwall's Danny Baker there.

Now FFL was clearly of its laddish mid-90s time and the Jason Lee blacking up / 'he's got a pineapple on his head' has been rightly apologised for.

No-one would or should put up with that now. And Alison Moyet (who I love as a singer) may or may not have revised her opinion.

Clearly no woman should have to suffer threats of violence, unwanted touching or sexist abuse at games, or anywhere else for that matter.

Football's come a long way in this respect as it has in others. But I do wonder just how much further it's possible to go in reality.

Well-meaning attempts at redefining (some might say social re-engineering) the 'working man's ballet' is unlikely to have the full desired effects.

This is why both the women's game and the Qatar World Cup is so different. The key traditional demographic is missing, so a different experience is had.


Anyway, here's the transcript of the part of the conversation that was around chanting:

Baddiel: "Alison, as a singer...as a proper singer...I mean, do you chant and sing at football?"

Moyet: "All the time. I love it."

Baddiel: "But do people look round and say, 'God, that's nice!'?

Moyet: (laughs) "I just think everybody does sing at football matches like they do who come from Millwall. One incredible song which really appeals to me goes, "Oh my Southend is wonderful, oh my Southend is wonderful, it's full of tits, fanny and United..." (laughs)

Baker: "Yes, I know that one."

Skinner: "Well it is wonderful, isn't it?"

Moyet: "It's just the way everyone peters off towards the end."

Baddiel: "What's the tune of that, Alison? Or don't you want to sing it?"

Moyet: (sings in an exaggerated neanderthal way) "Oh my Sarfend... (laughs)

Baker: (finishes off the song)

Baddiel: (deadpans) "What a lovely song." (everyone laughs)


No-one set out to offend. No-one offended. Just football fan bandinage and repartee.

The video's terrible quality, but watch/listen from 17:06 onwards and make up your own mind.

As much as genuine abuse should be called out, let's hope this kind of thing isn't cancelled in the future for fear of offence.

With the matchday experience having changed dramatically in recent years, especially in the Premier League, football can't afford to lose more of its edgy soul that made us fall in love with the game in the first place.

I have always hated that song. I still hate it when I hear it (it is still sung). It is sung by immature boys/men who see women as sex objects. It isn’t edgy. It has never been a part of my football enjoyment in the 46 years I have been going to games.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'm going to crash the local WI jam competition and insist that they accept my beer, fart and chilli flavoured offering while I sing "get your tits out for the lads"

 

[hart's shirt]

I have always hated that song. I still hate it when I hear it (it is still sung). It is sung by immature boys/men who see women as sex objects. It isn’t edgy. It has never been a part of my football enjoyment in the 46 years I have been going to games.

I can't say I've ever sung it too. But it's clear from the video that Alison Moyet did and it really appealed to her enough to sing it on TV.

Evidently one woman's meat is another man's poison.

 

[Cotton Socks]

Admittedly I've never gone on my own (just me & male jnr for the last 4 years, he's only just 15) but I've never felt 'unsafe', certainly not in the ground. I feel slightly wary of walking past the train queue after the match when people are on the bridge but that's only down to the (slight) possibility that someone may throw something from it. I also feel slightly wary walking back through Stanmer when it's dark, but safer than walking along a quiet road at night when no-one is around.
I encountered a palace fan weeing up a tree on the way to match once, he had 2 mates with him. I cheekily said to his mates to tell him that it's not Selhurst and we have toilets at the Amex and then much to Jnr's dismay we all walked to the ground together.
It's not a 'football' thing, it's a 'general' thing, 'Get your tits out for the lads' is a song that used to be sung in quite a few places, even to groups of women just walking down the street. I've never heard it at a match either.
It has nothing to do with 'football' being unsafe. In a massive crowd of people I can't see many males not doing something if another male went for a female. As I said, I feel safer walking to the bus stop from a match in the dark, than I do walking the dog in the dark.

 

[TugWilson]

Well this may upset Crodo`s demographic but i have witnessed some pretty horrific sights at football matches , especially in the 70s and 80s but , i have seen many more good deeds performed by our supporters . Something not mentioned very often is the self policing within our fan base , i have witnessed and on occasion ( when much younger ) helped to stop idiots that were intent on dragging our colours through the mud .

There will always be problems of one type or another in football , and the one absolute is that you will find them if you insist on looking for them or manufacturing them .

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yup, it does. The "1 in 4" usually quoted number is based on one flawed survey afaik. But regardless most murders and other severe attacks against women doesn't happen the way it is often portrayed in movies etc. Statistically speaking the unsafest place for a woman is to be home with her boyfriend/husband. Yet many fear to go out and do stuff or take a walk after dark, which is a result of blowing up the risks while failing to mention that 99.99% who takes a walk in a park or go to some event will come home unscathered.

Judging by the reaction of women at a recent talk on rape at a school I think the 1 in 4 is a significant under estimate. Not going to engage on this any further as too many male egos on this thread.

 

[hoveboyslim]

How about men not being idiots. And when there are idiots around then men stopping it. Women feeling unsafe is a male problem, not a female problem. The sooner men understand that the better

 

[Swansman]

Judging by the reaction of women at a recent talk on rape at a school I think the 1 in 4 is a significant under estimate. Not going to engage on this any further as too many male egos on this thread.

I think & hope the opposite, but agree it is a difficult subject to discuss (particularly online where its difficult to dwelve deeper into definitions, causes and psychological aspects) . Point with my original post is that the feeling of unsafety does not necessarily have any strong relation to whether it is safe or not: as an example, there are far more people afraid of flying than going by car but the risk of suffering some accident is bigger in a car. Think its a little bit the same with football stadiums... quite often there can be a not-so-comfortable atmosphere but the risk of something actually happening is quite low.

 

[AlbionBro]

I find the ladies quite intimidating at matches, I have heard some ladies saying things about Trossard like, "he can dribble all over me", and sometimes on the park and ride their breasts will brush my back.
I have no real issues with this as the ladies seem to like fun as much as men.

 

[Cornwallboy]

Genuinely pleased for them.

Their experience will not be the experience of other women.

Yes I acknowledge that and think football is for everyone and everyone should feel safe at a football match.

 

[Zeberdi]

Hmmm … so looking at the poll options, the OP would perhaps envisage this as a way forward,.,.

1. Put women in separate closure because we’ve great role models for that in orthodox Christian and Jewish Tradition don’t we? - or maybe Iran has the right idea and we just ban them completely from attending ( unless it’s ladies football, in which case we can just ban the men)
2. If single sex football matches is not acceptable perhaps we could enforce a safe dress code for women so upon entering public stadiums, they be covered head to toe in a burkas so not to tempt the thousands of sexual predators who apparently stalk the terraces looking for birds to abuse rather than watching the game
3. Keep all these football going women - the ones enclosed and dressed in burkas - far away from alcohol and areas it is being served because when all they men drink they become frightening, sex obsessed, misogynistic monsters - it’s beginning to sound like Qatar more and more by the minute.
4. Woman to process to their enclosure waving pink #me too banners where they may dance around to Gloria Gaynor’s “I will Survive” before sitting down.

Jeez what a lot of ill-judged misogynistic crap to base a poll on and which patronises women and demonises all men.

Several posters are right with their comments imo

1. Yes, there is always a climate of fear around the personal safety of women and the large majority of women who are physically abused or die from male violence, do so at the hands of someone they know rather than strangers. But society as a whole with the help of the media is good about creating climates of fear about most things. “Women don’t feel safe at football matches” is false news - SOME women have not felt safe due to some specific incidents. There’s a big difference.
2. The only thing that needs to be done to make women safer is for the majority of men ( and women ffs they have mouths to intervene too - and less likely to attract an aggressive response when doing so!) to call out the minority if they see women being verbally abused or physically threatened. Same way as the majority should also be calling out racist behaviour and homophobia.


Otherwise it’s all bollox like the very unfunny poll on this thread. Have to be honest too, I’ve seen more sexist and misogynistic comments from a small minority number of members of this forum than I’ve ever heard at a football match ( on this thread too) so perhaps social media and chat rooms is the place to start calling out those posting comments that are disrespectful to women or overtly misogynistic …

I’ll start by calling out the OP and those that think writing jokes about women’s body parts on a thread that even raises the safety of women is appropriate or funny.

 

[Cotton Socks]

Definitely women only zones, corral them all together safety in numbers.................but where?

By the glass tunnel! So we, oops I mean they, can letch over the sexy players and get a good view of their kit!

 

[Cotton Socks]

Hmmm … so looking at the poll options, the OP would perhaps envisage this as a way forward,.,.

1. Put women in separate closure because we’ve great role models for that in orthodox Christian and Jewish Tradition don’t we? - or maybe Iran has the right idea and we just ban them completely from attending ( unless it’s ladies football, in which case we can just ban the men)
2. If single sex football matches is not acceptable perhaps we could enforce a safe dress code for women so upon entering public stadiums, they be covered head to toe in a burkas so not to tempt the thousands of sexual predators who apparently stalk the terraces looking for birds to abuse rather than watching the game
3. Keep all these football going women - the ones enclosed and dressed in burkas - far away from alcohol and areas it is being served because when all they men drink they become frightening, sex obsessed, misogynistic monsters - it’s beginning to sound like Qatar more and more by the minute.
4. Woman to process to their enclosure waving pink #me too banners where they may dance around to Gloria Gaynor’s “I will Survive” before sitting down.

Jeez what a lot of ill-judged misogynistic crap to base a poll on and which patronises women and demonises all men.

Several posters are right with their comments imo

1. Yes, there is always a climate of fear around the personal safety of women and the large majority of women who are physically abused or die from male violence, do so at the hands of someone they know rather than strangers. But society as a whole with the help of the media is good about creating climates of fear about most things. “Women don’t feel safe at football matches” is false news - SOME women have not felt safe due to some specific incidents. There’s a big difference.
2. The only thing that needs to be done to make women safer is for the majority of men ( and women ffs they have mouths to intervene too - and less likely to attract an aggressive response when doing so!) to call out the minority if they see women being verbally abused or physically threatened. Same way as the majority should also be calling out racist behaviour and homophobia.


Otherwise it’s all bollox like the very unfunny poll on this thread. Have to be honest too, I’ve seen more sexist and misogynistic comments from a small minority number of members of this forum than I’ve ever heard at a football match ( on this thread too) so perhaps social media and chat rooms is the place to start calling out those posting comments that are disrespectful to women or overtly misogynistic …

I’ll start by calling out the OP and those that think writing jokes about women’s body parts on a thread that even raises the safety of women is appropriate or funny.

You're new here aren't you?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Men can stop acting like arses for a start.

 

[portslade seagull]

Wasn't it Peterborough that had a gang of girl hooligans in the mid '70s?

Seem to remember Birmingham as well

 

[Kosh]

Ban the demon drink, from football, society and the human race.

Herbal teas all round and some yoga before matches, and screaming therapy at full time.

Yey.

Actually, I can foresee alcohol being ‘banned’ in my lifetime, which as I’m 80% hemp and 20% blueberry smoothie could be anytime in the next 120 years.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Hmmm … so looking at the poll options, the OP would perhaps envisage this as a way forward,.,.

1. Put women in separate closure because we’ve great role models for that in orthodox Christian and Jewish Tradition don’t we? - or maybe Iran has the right idea and we just ban them completely from attending ( unless it’s ladies football, in which case we can just ban the men)
2. If single sex football matches is not acceptable perhaps we could enforce a safe dress code for women so upon entering public stadiums, they be covered head to toe in a burkas so not to tempt the thousands of sexual predators who apparently stalk the terraces looking for birds to abuse rather than watching the game
3. Keep all these football going women - the ones enclosed and dressed in burkas - far away from alcohol and areas it is being served because when all they men drink they become frightening, sex obsessed, misogynistic monsters - it’s beginning to sound like Qatar more and more by the minute.
4. Woman to process to their enclosure waving pink #me too banners where they may dance around to Gloria Gaynor’s “I will Survive” before sitting down.

Jeez what a lot of ill-judged misogynistic crap to base a poll on and which patronises women and demonises all men.

Several posters are right with their comments imo

1. Yes, there is always a climate of fear around the personal safety of women and the large majority of women who are physically abused or die from male violence, do so at the hands of someone they know rather than strangers. But society as a whole with the help of the media is good about creating climates of fear about most things. “Women don’t feel safe at football matches” is false news - SOME women have not felt safe due to some specific incidents. There’s a big difference.
2. The only thing that needs to be done to make women safer is for the majority of men ( and women ffs they have mouths to intervene too - and less likely to attract an aggressive response when doing so!) to call out the minority if they see women being verbally abused or physically threatened. Same way as the majority should also be calling out racist behaviour and homophobia.


Otherwise it’s all bollox like the very unfunny poll on this thread. Have to be honest too, I’ve seen more sexist and misogynistic comments from a small minority number of members of this forum than I’ve ever heard at a football match ( on this thread too) so perhaps social media and chat rooms is the place to start calling out those posting comments that are disrespectful to women or overtly misogynistic …

I’ll start by calling out the OP and those that think writing jokes about women’s body parts on a thread that even raises the safety of women is appropriate or funny.

You know that net I posted? Let me know when you get out of it

 

[BN9 BHA]

You know that net I posted? Let me know when you get out of it

He caught a whopper there

 

[Sirnormangall]

Misogyny isn’t taken seriously, certainly not at football matches or on football social media. Just look at the crap that someone like Laura Woods takes after reporting on a match. She may give as good as she gets but she shouldn’t need to. I’d say that it is blokes with a very small cock but I don’t feel the need to abuse women, so it can’t be that.

It’s quite simple, don’t be a dick.

And, when sexism and misogyny is mentioned, don’t belittle it. Or, don’t be a dick.

From personal experience misogyny is taken seriously at the Amex. A few years ago my wife had an interesting altercation with a fellow season ticket holder who felt she should be doing something other than watching football. Rather than thump him (which I dearly wanted to do) I had a word with a steward ( as did a number of supportive fellow fans who were also upset with the guy’s views). The stewards showed him the door and we’ve never seen him since. I know this wouldn’t happen at a number of other clubs but my experience shows that if you call these tw*ts out you can get a good outcome.

 

[Zeberdi]

You know that net I posted? Let me know when you get out of it

I’m not in any net thanks - Crodo‘s motives for starting the thread are a little beyond me but irrelevant- the poll is ridiculous even as an attempt at humour and so I stated.

However - Crodo inadvertently raised an important issue - that if some women are feeling unsafe in a football match environment (for whatever reason) or have experienced verbal abuse, sex discrimination or misogynistic behaviour of any sort, it’s a conversation that needs to be had - and, given this is a forum predominantly for football fans, then here is as good a place as any to have a conversation about that.

Your own contributions to this thread clearly reflect the level of seriousness to which you treat the issue.

Edit - just to repeat the point of my first post

2. The only thing that needs to be done to make women safer (and/or feel safer) is for the majority … to call out the minority if they see women being verbally abused or physically threatened. Same way as the majority should also be calling out racist behaviour and homophobia.

…and I’ll add to that, online bulling and trolling