[Politics] White working class failure

[midnight_rendezvous]

The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy. A group to MPs who have consistently voted for scrapping EMA, for raising tuition fees, closing sure start centres, to not feed school children then have the gall to try and turn this into some culture war BS to cover up their own failings in government.

 

[vegster]

Based both on my own personal background/experience, and my subsequent experience teaching in Higher Education for two decades, I think much of the problem is an anti-intellectual culture among the working class, a mentality encouraged by The Sun, but which goes much wider and deeper. As far as my dad was concerned, any (young) bloke who read books - like I did - or was artistic, or musical, or in way creative, was "a ******* poof", and although that was a long time ago, I suspect that mentality and mindset is wide-spread in many working-class communities.

Similarly, when I was choosing my A-Levels, my dad said "I left school at 15 and got a proper job [labourer at the old Shoreham power station], so why can't you, instead of sitting on your a*** learning fancy big words?" I only went to 6th Form and then university because I had some brilliant teachers who saw potential in me, and gave me the confidence and encouragement I had knocked out of me at home. Going to Uni was my 'teenage rebellion', and the day I left for Uni was literally the last time I saw my parents - I wasn't welcome at home after that. It's as if they were ashamed of me!

Now, the (few) working class kids I teach in a university tell pretty much the same story today - anti-academic hostility from their parents, and similar sneering from their ex-friends; in some of these working-class communities, going away to college is deemed a kind of betrayal.

And so many young women in these working-class communities are still, in the 21st Century, expected (by their mothers) to leave school as soon as possible, marry a child-hood sweetheart, and start producing grandchildren; preferably 3 or 4 before their 25th birthday - "What do you want to go to College for, dear, and fill your pretty head with a lot of mumbo-jumbo?" My wife had to endure this nonsense in the insular, small-town Welsh community she was raised in, before - to her mum's horror and dismay - she left to go to college; it was the only way of escaping.

It's usually the teachers who get blamed, by politicians and the media, for 'letting down' working-class pupils, but if their parents and peers are sneering at education and learning, and are proud of never having read a book in their lives, most of these kids are doomed from the outset.

As a life-long Lefty, I am the first to recognise that in so may ways (particularly crap wages and poor working conditions), the working-class are treated like dirt - but in some ways, they are also their own worst enemies, albeit without realising it.

It seems to me that most " Working Class " kids are encouraged to have just enough education to become a tax paying member of consumer society but not so much that they can see, and question, the inequalities in the system. That would be dangerous to the old order.

 

[DumLum]

Disagree. A fully engaged teacher or football coach or significant other adult can reset the mindset given to kids by their parent(s)

Maybe in a film

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Proper working class folk are too busy doing proper jobs that bring genuine value to society. Not sat in offices pretending to 'work' while they converse with the chattering classes on 'tinternet.

I listen to enough of Radio 4 to know a chattering class 'intellectual' when I hear one.

You looking at me, pal?

 

[1066familyman]

may be due to lack of education? it doesnt have to be an original thought, if its a valid and consequential factor, we should address it. because if this is a major impediment to advancement, spending or campaigns targeting only classroom activity are going to fail.

It's a red herring, is what it is.

Economic systems and societies value systems are where the real problems lay.

Much simpler to blame the working classes for their own 'failures' though. That way, very little ever changes.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

does that mean the comprehensive school system, which covers most the population, has failed to provide equal education across the country?

In my view, yes but the problems start much earlier and thats when the interventions need. to be.

Neglected/trauma affected children who dont feel safe due to hunger, cold, domestic situation are immediately disadvantaged.

Its difficult to engage or learn when you are continually assessing the threatening world around you, particularly when there are 30 other children to consider and be wary of.



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[beorhthelm]

It's a red herring, is what it is.

Economic systems and societies value systems are where the real problems lay.

Much simpler to blame the working classes for their own 'failures' though. That way, very little ever changes.

thats exactly what the poster was highlighting. values in society, or in this case a sub-group, is a source of much of the problem. dont see it as about placing blame, it providing explanation.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Based both on my own personal background/experience, and my subsequent experience teaching in Higher Education for two decades, I think much of the problem is an anti-intellectual culture among the working class, a mentality encouraged by The Sun, but which goes much wider and deeper. As far as my dad was concerned, any (young) bloke who read books - like I did - or was artistic, or musical, or in way creative, was "a ******* poof", and although that was a long time ago, I suspect that mentality and mindset is wide-spread in many working-class communities.

Similarly, when I was choosing my A-Levels, my dad said "I left school at 15 and got a proper job [labourer at the old Shoreham power station], so why can't you, instead of sitting on your a*** learning fancy big words?" I only went to 6th Form and then university because I had some brilliant teachers who saw potential in me, and gave me the confidence and encouragement I had knocked out of me at home. Going to Uni was my 'teenage rebellion', and the day I left for Uni was literally the last time I saw my parents - I wasn't welcome at home after that. It's as if they were ashamed of me!

Now, the (few) working class kids I teach in a university tell pretty much the same story today - anti-academic hostility from their parents, and similar sneering from their ex-friends; in some of these working-class communities, going away to college is deemed a kind of betrayal.

And so many young women in these working-class communities are still, in the 21st Century, expected (by their mothers) to leave school as soon as possible, marry a child-hood sweetheart, and start producing grandchildren; preferably 3 or 4 before their 25th birthday - "What do you want to go to College for, dear, and fill your pretty head with a lot of mumbo-jumbo?" My wife had to endure this nonsense in the insular, small-town Welsh community she was raised in, before - to her mum's horror and dismay - she left to go to college; it was the only way of escaping.

It's usually the teachers who get blamed, by politicians and the media, for 'letting down' working-class pupils, but if their parents and peers are sneering at education and learning, and are proud of never having read a book in their lives, most of these kids are doomed from the outset.

As a life-long Lefty, I am the first to recognise that in so may ways (particularly crap wages and poor working conditions), the working-class are treated like dirt - but in some ways, they are also their own worst enemies, albeit without realising it.

Brilliant post. Resonates with some of what I saw growing up and commented on early (yes, I know, 'TL-DR' )

I can't say I was discouraged from study although my dad did take the piss when I wanted to watch something on BBC2 that mapped to one of my O levels, one time. To be fair that's the only time I got any mockery. Tacit encouragement in fact ("Well you may have done OK with the O levels but let's see how you do with the A levels"; a sort of encouragement, shirley?). He and my mum were very proud when I got my PhD, and he wrote me a letter in his perfect script, using a fountain pen. But I don't think my upbringing was very typical - working class income and very 'traditional' attitudes (mum) and yet my dad was a crazy maverick with an odd background, partly informed by what looks now like 'being on the spectrum'. Something I've inherited. Anyway, I mention that only for context.

Incidentally, thanks, those who have posted, including old Mouldy, for thoughtful and interesting comments, and not doing what [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] predicted

(yet )

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In my view, yes but the problems start much earlier and thats when the interventions need. to be.

Neglected/trauma affected children who dont feel safe due to hunger, cold, domestic situation are immediately disadvantaged.

Its difficult to engage or learn when you are continually assessing the threatening world around you, particularly when there are 30 other children to consider and be wary of.



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I've been reading your conversation with [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] with some interest.

I have seen comments about how one teacher or school 'saved' someone from a disadvantaging home. Yes, this can happen. However it depends on the teacher, the child and the home. In 'The Singing Detective' Dennis Potter alluded to the boy Binney who was beaten at school for a crime he did not commit, and mentally nosedived thereafter (fiction based on a real life experience, as far as I understand). Some can be crushed by careless cruelty and neglect. Everything from mild discouragement to abuse can go one way or the other - strengthen or destroy depending on genes and chance.

For some kids, a mentor and champion at school can save the day. For others, not.

A mild bit of affirmation from one teacher (actually a tutor at uni) stopped me dropping out, and instead choosing to work hard, with a new bit of confidence, and the rest is history. Ironically I later ended up with a lectureship in his department, and we did not get on. At all.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So many TLDR's, so little interest

Why would you ever bother posting that level of LookAtMe! nonsense?

Who's that aimed at? This thread is full of long posts by numerous posters, and it's only you, standing on the sidelines, throwing deep fried Mars bars

You're better than that

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Maybe in a film

Kes?

 

[Barnet Seagull]

I've been reading your conversation with [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] with some interest.

I have seen comments about how one teacher or school 'saved' someone from a disadvantaging home. Yes, this can happen. However it depends on the teacher, the child and the home. In 'The Singing Detective' Dennis Potter alluded to the boy Binney who was beaten at school for a crime he did not commit, and mentally nosedived thereafter (fiction based on a real life experience, as far as I understand). Some can be crushed by careless cruelty and neglect. Everything from mild discouragement to abuse can go one way or the other - strengthen or destroy depending on genes and chance.

For some kids, a mentor and champion at school can save the day. For others, not.

A mild bit of affirmation from one teacher (actually a tutor at uni) stopped me dropping out, and instead choosing to work hard, with a new bit of confidence, and the rest is history. Ironically I later ended up with a lectureship in his department, and we did not get on. At all.

The best way I can equate this is as follows.

You start a new job. You want to impress. Everything is unfamiliar. The office, the colleagues, the boss, where to eat, sit, how to behave. Its stressful.

Now imagine you are 5 and dont have the tools to deal with this environment well.

Now imagine 30 other children all trying to do the same.

Imagine your new boss having no time for you and no one helping you as they are too busy.

Imagine this for months. Imagine the stress.

Now imagine also being hungry, tired and scared due to your domestic situation on top of all of that.

How are you going to succeed?



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[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't believe in white privilege. I do believe in middle class privilege. The middle class voice is the loudest on here and most media. They told the white working class they were stupid thick racists if they voted for brexit. Now they are telling them they are stupid thick racists with regard to taking the knee. That's obviously going to work then.

Privilage means unfairly obtained and not earned. I am no economist but I suspect it can be argued that the middle class is those who are sufficiently smart and hard working to 'rise above' the working class, despite the jackboots of the upper class kicking down on them.

I wouldn't argue that, though, because a working class - middle class divide is far too artificial and nebulous to warrant a moment's consideration.

I agree that sneering at Brexitters for being thick is wrong (and I have done it). I understand how booing the knee may make sense to some who are not racist in any way (this took me a lot longer to get my head around but I think I get it now).

However, it is important to not allow a chip to settle on one's shoulder about the middle class. There are good and bad in all classes. Some of my best friends are middle class

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The best way I can equate this is as follows.

You start a new job. You want to impress. Everything is unfamiliar. The office, the colleagues, the boss, where to eat, sit, how to behave. Its stressful.

Now imagine you are 5 and dont have the tools to deal with this environment well.

Now imagine 30 other children all trying to do the same.

Imagine your new boss having no time for you and no one helping you as they are too busy.

Imagine this for months. Imagine the stress.

Now imagine also being hungry, tired and scared due to your domestic situation on top of all of that.

How are you going to succeed?



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You jumped from being at school to being at work . . . .there is a lot of missing narrative there.....

On average I would expect the outcome to be worse than the outcome for someone without any of that, but it will depend on other issues.

I'd like to think that support has improved since I was a kid.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

You jumped from being at school to being at work . . . .there is a lot of missing narrative there.....

On average I would expect the outcome to be worse than the outcome for someone without any of that, but it will depend on other issues.

I'd like to think that support has improved since I was a kid.

...and thats the nub of it. Already at a disadvantage at such an early age and with limited support to chane that. Equal opportunity in education isnt equal opportunity overall. More importantly the education system doesnt have the resources to intervene sufficiently to deliver better outcomes for the most disadvantaged.



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[GT49er]

Go back a few decades and the discrimination, or piss taking in the playground was regional dialect more than different language. some of the 'foreign' kids at my school spoke better English than half of the yokels/locals

Maybe I go back a few decades more than that, but that does not reflect my experience one bit.

 

[1066familyman]

thats exactly what the poster was highlighting. values in society, or in this case a sub-group, is a source of much of the problem. dont see it as about placing blame, it providing explanation.

I said societies values.

Not, values in society.

Two very different things.

You're still playing the same game. Suggesting the values in certain sections of society, are what's holding them back. I disagree.

 

[GT49er]

Sigh....

You didn't say a perception, you said the perception, which is quite different. I'm saying the people promoting that as the perception are more concerned with sowing division than actually improving the situation.:

No. The perception is what is perceived by the people on the receiving end. It has little or nothing to do with politics, other than perhaps realpolitik.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

...and thats the nub of it. Already at a disadvantage at such an early age and with limited support to chane that. Equal opportunity in education isnt equal opportunity overall. More importantly the education system doesnt have the resources to intervene sufficiently to deliver better outcomes for the most disadvantaged.



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OK, yes, fair points.

 

[carlzeiss]

I've been failing for 50+ years , done pretty well out of it though