[Politics] Which gender do you most identify with?

[Klaas]

Not angry and not little

The answer is simple, let people be who they want to be, just don't expect everyone else to believe in their nonsense and keep it to yourself.

Let the majority decide what is and isn't acceptable.

The Bully's Manifesto

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Anonymous poll

How on earth are we supposed to select from such a meagre list of options?

Where's the full 107 (and counting) options?

How Many Genders Are There? Gender Identity List

Alphabetical list of gender identities and terms people use when identifying themselves and talking about gender.

www.sexualdiversity.org

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’ve noticed in quite a number of places I’ve been recently that instead of men’s toilets and women’s toilets, each toilet has both male and female signs on. Each cubicle has been designed for a single person to be in at a time and is self-contained with its own sink and hand dryer. It seems an elegant solution to me, that could be retrofitted at any point bathrooms next come up for refurbishment and cause absolutely no inconvenience to anyone.

Again, changing rooms could be similarly structured. Everyone gets their privacy in a cubicle, nobody sees anything that makes them uncomfortable.

It strikes me that again, it’s possible that this has become unnecessarily hyped as a political cause, when the reality is prosaic and rather unexciting. Nobody ever kept people angry with the word ‘cubicles’.

Precisely what we have where I work.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I was born male.

After that I do not need a label, unlike a very small minority with real world problems, and the rest of the attention seekers.

Bully for you.

That's such a peevish little post. What's got into you?

 

[dsr-burnley]

There is something in the paper

I’ve noticed in quite a number of places I’ve been recently that instead of men’s toilets and women’s toilets, each toilet has both male and female signs on. Each cubicle has been designed for a single person to be in at a time and is self-contained with its own sink and hand dryer. It seems an elegant solution to me, that could be retrofitted at any point bathrooms next come up for refurbishment and cause absolutely no inconvenience to anyone.

Again, changing rooms could be similarly structured. Everyone gets their privacy in a cubicle, nobody sees anything that makes them uncomfortable.

It strikes me that again, it’s possible that this has become unnecessarily hyped as a political cause, when the reality is prosaic and rather unexciting. Nobody ever kept people angry with the word ‘cubicles’.

If the gents at Turf Moor was replaced with separate cubicles with hand basins, it would slow things down more than a little. They would need a whole lot more space to install the extra facilities they would need. I suspect the Amex could have similar problems?

 

[chickens]

The problem is for many women any man in their private spaces would be seen as creepy and unsettling.

I repeat. Cubicles. Make every space unisex with each individual having access to private toilet/changing facilities. No need to rush, just the next time refurbishment is due. I haven’t batted an eyelid at the toilets in the places I’ve been being unisex, just used them as appropriate and got on with my life.

The other problem is there's people out there pushing to allow biological men to be any space biological women consider a no-man zone. Regardless of how the women feel.

I share some discomfort with the idea that the rights of women born women are less than those who have become women through any combination of choice or surgery.

Nonetheless, this again strikes me as largely a straw (wo)man argument. For venues/situations open to all, unisex cubicles solve any issues.

Then we come to the supposed cases of ‘biological men’ infiltrating “women only” spaces where safeguarding issues may apply, such as hospital wards, domestic abuse shelters, and prisons.

Most ‘cases’ of this have turned out to be bogus and/or perpetuated by individuals who very much have an agenda on the subject. Here are some facts that may help relieve some anxiety.

1. There are strict screening processes in place for each refuge that differ by organisation. Nobody of a sexually predatory nature should be getting into these establishments regardless of their biology, and even if they were to get in, they wouldn’t remain there very long.

2. There are already organisations and shelters that specialise in helping transgender victims of domestic abuse. Abuse can be carried out in any type of relationship, sadly nobody has a monopoly on being an arsehole.

3. The whole framing of this type of “safeguarding concern” is that a biological male is attempting to infiltrate a women’s refuge or hospital ward purely for their own uncontrollable and predatory sexual gratification. Anyone who’s spent any time in an NHS hospital recently knows that you’re more likely to get norovirus than any form of sexual gratification, and similarly with refuges, people tend to be there because they have been the independently verified victims of domestic abuse, not for a chuckle and the hope of seeing a pair of surprise tits. In reality, that’s what the internet is for.

Different shelters have different policies regarding transgender service users, all are welcome to find shelters that they feel comfortable in if they have specific concerns.

4. Even if/when there are genuine cases of somebody acting in bad faith and genuinely manipulating the system, that is down to that individual. That is not a brush to tar the trans community with, any more than Fred and Rose West should be used as standard examples of married life between heterosexual men and women.

5. You can find people out there on the internet pushing all sorts of madness, from anti-vax, to the (clearly wrong) idea that 5g frequencies will kill you. Just because people are out there, doesn’t mean you have to take them seriously, engage with them, or get angry about it.

Any biological man who wants to do that is creepy by nature.

That’s a huge generalisation based on an invented individual you’ve never met. People born male may well have genuine doubts about their gender, and genuinely believe that they identify as a woman.

If they’re genuine, you’re calling somebody “creepy” for seeking out spaces where they feel they belong and are comfortable. I would absolutely 100% encourage individuals with doubts to live as fully as they can in their chosen gender before committing to anything as drastic as surgery.

Nobody’s asking you to live like this, nobody’s asking you to change how you live your life. It’s fine to not understand and not want to engage. I’m happy that you’ve always been comfortable in the skin you were born in, we need more happiness in the world.

What I don’t understand is why (from your self-proclaimed position of not getting it) you think we should be so involved in this. Surely these situations are delicate and sensitive, and should be managed by the individual people who are directly involved and impacted by these things? Not us old white males who (let’s face it) are largely superfluous to these conversations. Let the people affected reach mutually satisfactory conclusions. Don’t demonise a section of our own population and make it a reason to vote a particular way.

 

[chickens]

There is something in the paper

If the gents at Turf Moor was replaced with separate cubicles with hand basins, it would slow things down more than a little. They would need a whole lot more space to install the extra facilities they would need. I suspect the Amex could have similar problems?

Absolutely, we may have to build “Charlie booths” so those who just need a place to snort a line of their favourite recreational headfuck don’t make the queue for the lavvies worse.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I repeat. Cubicles. Make every space unisex with each individual having access to private toilet/changing facilities. No need to rush, just the next time refurbishment is due. I haven’t batted an eyelid at the toilets in the places I’ve been being unisex, just used them as appropriate and got on with my life.



I share some discomfort with the idea that the rights of women born women are less than those who have become women through any combination of choice or surgery.

Nonetheless, this again strikes me as largely a straw (wo)man argument. For venues/situations open to all, unisex cubicles solve any issues.

Then we come to the supposed cases of ‘biological men’ infiltrating “women only” spaces where safeguarding issues may apply, such as hospital wards, domestic abuse shelters, and prisons.

Most ‘cases’ of this have turned out to be bogus and/or perpetuated by individuals who very much have an agenda on the subject. Here are some facts that may help relieve some anxiety.

1. There are strict screening processes in place for each refuge that differ by organisation. Nobody of a sexually predatory nature should be getting into these establishments regardless of their biology, and even if they were to get in, they wouldn’t remain there very long.

2. There are already organisations and shelters that specialise in helping transgender victims of domestic abuse. Abuse can be carried out in any type of relationship, sadly nobody has a monopoly on being an arsehole.

3. The whole framing of this type of “safeguarding concern” is that a biological male is attempting to infiltrate a women’s refuge or hospital ward purely for their own uncontrollable and predatory sexual gratification. Anyone who’s spent any time in an NHS hospital recently knows that you’re more likely to get norovirus than any form of sexual gratification, and similarly with refuges, people tend to be there because they have been the independently verified victims of domestic abuse, not for a chuckle and the hope of seeing a pair of surprise tits. In reality, that’s what the internet is for.

Different shelters have different policies regarding transgender service users, all are welcome to find shelters that they feel comfortable in if they have specific concerns.

4. Even if/when there are genuine cases of somebody acting in bad faith and genuinely manipulating the system, that is down to that individual. That is not a brush to tar the trans community with, any more than Fred and Rose West should be used as standard examples of married life between heterosexual men and women.

5. You can find people out there on the internet pushing all sorts of madness, from anti-vax, to the (clearly wrong) idea that 5g frequencies will kill you. Just because people are out there, doesn’t mean you have to take them seriously, engage with them, or get angry about it.



That’s a huge generalisation based on an invented individual you’ve never met. People born male may well have genuine doubts about their gender, and genuinely believe that they identify as a woman.

If they’re genuine, you’re calling somebody “creepy” for seeking out spaces where they feel they belong and are comfortable. I would absolutely 100% encourage individuals with doubts to live as fully as they can in their chosen gender before committing to anything as drastic as surgery.

Nobody’s asking you to live like this, nobody’s asking you to change how you live your life. It’s fine to not understand and not want to engage. I’m happy that you’ve always been comfortable in the skin you were born in, we need more happiness in the world.

What I don’t understand is why (from your self-proclaimed position of not getting it) you think we should be so involved in this. Surely these situations are delicate and sensitive, and should be managed by the individual people who are directly involved and impacted by these things? Not us old white males who (let’s face it) are largely superfluous to these conversations. Let the people affected reach mutually satisfactory conclusions. Don’t demonise a section of our own population and make it a reason to vote a particular way.

TL;DR

 

[chickens]

Apologies all, I’m taking myself off this thread for a bit as I fear I’m monopolising it.

 

[beorhthelm]

I repeat. Cubicles. Make every space unisex with each individual having access to private toilet/changing facilities. No need to rush, just the next time refurbishment is due. I haven’t batted an eyelid at the toilets in the places I’ve been being unisex, just used them as appropriate and got on with my life.

unisex is a solution and that's fine as long as everyone it happy to wait for refurbishment. which if we're honest for many places will be never. or impractical. imagine the mens at Amex are converted to all cubicles (though i suppose we can use all the present ladies cubicles to offset the queues).

i think the safeguading issues are too lightly dismissed. as a fella i dont mind, doesnt have impact on me, but there are large cohort of women who are bothered and being told to be quiet about it. the irony is many layers deep.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Apologies all, I’m taking myself off this thread for a bit as I fear I’m monopolising it.

Or maybe just refrain from copy n pasting great slabs of text that few, quite rightly, will be arsed to read?

 

[chickens]

Or maybe just refrain from copy n pasting great slabs of text that few, quite rightly, will be arsed to read?

No copy/paste involved. All typed out on the iPhone, and then edited when I realise autocorrect has got involved and made me look even more foolish than usual.

The other half is in hospital for tests, so I have more time on my hands than usual while I’m waiting for her.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Bully for you.

That's such a peevish little post. What's got into you?

You inspired me!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You inspired me!

Amusing, if untrue

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

unisex is a solution and that's fine as long as everyone it happy to wait for refurbishment. which if we're honest for many places will be never. or impractical. imagine the mens at Amex are converted to all cubicles (though i suppose we can use all the present ladies cubicles to offset the queues).

i think the safeguading issues are too lightly dismissed. as a fella i dont mind, doesnt have impact on me, but there are large cohort of women who are bothered and being told to be quiet about it. the irony is many layers deep.

I'd like to hear from an actual woman who has actually experienced someone not biologically female causing a lurid kerfuffle in the ladies.

As opposed to hypothetical women (and men) imagining the horror of an obviously male bloke in a dress and wig, attempting to do a stand-up piss in a sink in the ladies.

This is pretty much on a par with the outrage felt by Very Heterosexual men in the 1970s, fearful that if homosexuality were normalized a great big Nancy might wink at them in the gents.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'd like to hear from an actual woman who has actually experienced someone not biologically female causing a lurid kerfuffle in the ladies.

As opposed to hypothetical women (and men) imagining the horror of an obviously male bloke in a dress and wig, attempting to do a stand-up piss in a sink in the ladies.

This is pretty much on a par with the outrage felt by Very Heterosexual men in the 1970s, fearful that if homosexuality were normalized a great big Nancy might wink at them in the gents.

Exactly. An awful lot of transphobia comes from the same place as homophobia. A fear that their kids may be one of them. A fear that one of these lefty types might somehow suddenly make their regular bus driver or bar tender wear a skirt. A fear that oompah loompas might carry they themselves off for a quick covering in mascara, an unwanted castration and a fitting at Anne Summers.

Meanwhile, actual examples of toilet outrage are non existent and the one outlier, Isla Bryson, has been chucked back in a male prison.

 

[The Clamp]

unisex is a solution and that's fine as long as everyone it happy to wait for refurbishment. which if we're honest for many places will be never. or impractical. imagine the mens at Amex are converted to all cubicles (though i suppose we can use all the present ladies cubicles to offset the queues).

i think the safeguading issues are too lightly dismissed. as a fella i dont mind, doesnt have impact on me, but there are large cohort of women who are bothered and being told to be quiet about it. the irony is many layers deep.

I hear the men with fake boobs are hiding behind the toilets. Waiting to jump out at our unsuspecting women and children.

Ban women and children from toilets now.

Safeguarding women and children is a very important issue. Let’s not waste too much time over-exploring an issue that simply doesn’t exist.

Time would be better spent educating people that trans people are not a threat.

 

[BN9 BHA]

 

[beorhthelm]

I'd like to hear from an actual woman who has actually experienced someone not biologically female causing a lurid kerfuffle in the ladies.

As opposed to hypothetical women (and men) imagining the horror of an obviously male bloke in a dress and wig, attempting to do a stand-up piss in a sink in the ladies.

This is pretty much on a par with the outrage felt by Very Heterosexual men in the 1970s, fearful that if homosexuality were normalized a great big Nancy might wink at them in the gents.

oh i think its very much about the fear rather than real incidents. though there was the very real situation of a rapist going to female prison in Scotland a few months ago. the point is how do we address those fears without saying womens rights are not as important as trans rights? there's a whole campaign about this sort of thing in social media, its kicking up quite a bit of fuss.

and its #NonBinaryAwarenessWeek so this thread is very timely.

 

[The Clamp]

oh i think its very much about the fear rather than real incidents. though there was the very real situation of a rapist going to female prison in Scotland a few months ago. the point is how do we address those fears without saying womens rights are not as important as trans rights? there's a whole campaign over this sort of thing in social media, its kicking up quite a bit of fuss.

While I agree that people are concerned, those people are gullible and ill informed. As usual.

Yes, I’ve absolutely no doubt whatsoever it’s causing a fuss on social media.

Whether a dress was brown or green also caused a huge fuss on social media.