What the Pentagon didn't want us to hear...

[algie]

I think everyone should watch the video before commenting. The American pilots were unsure as they saw the orange tops, it was groundcontrol that said their were no troops in the area. Their reaction is one of shock. They are breaking down, totally gutted about killing a friendly. It's the fog of war thing, tho whole things is such a waste of life.

ERROR ONE came when they asked the Forward Air Controller, call sign Manila Hotel, if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west. In ERROR TWO neither pilot gave the precise grid references for the Household Cavalry patrol to double check its identity.

ERROR THREE saw them convince themselves the identification panels were really orange rocket launchers.

In ERROR FOUR POPOV36 decides to attack, saying he is “rolling in” — without permission from the Forward Air Controller. POPOV35 asks for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion.



But ERROR FIVE came when POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it. In ERROR SIX POPOV36 strafes the column for a second time but still doubts its identity

 

[Biscuit]

Well I don't know the correct conduct, all I can say is I can see their point of view.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Well I don't know the correct conduct, all I can say is I can see their point of view.

yep. i got the impression it was a mistake. not lets blow it up and see what happens.

 

[desprateseagull]

havent seen video yet, or heard full story, though would have thought anyone with half abrain (i guess USA is excluded, then) would double check b4 bombing something.. JUST in case.

I mean, just how many tanks do the taliban have ffs?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I mean, just how many tanks do the taliban have ffs?

Not that many in Iraq, I'd have thought

 

[Muhammad - I’m hard - Bruce Lee]

comes down to poor funding of equipment.

friendly fire should be a thing of the past with the advent of IFF

FFS it was around 20 odd years ago, why aint our lads got it out there today?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Fair play to the spooks for leaking the video to The Sun tho

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

comes down to poor funding of equipment.

friendly fire should be a thing of the past with the advent of IFF

FFS it was around 20 odd years ago, why aint our lads got it out there today?

Ah - IFF (Interrogate Friend or Foe, for those who are unsure) has been in operation for many years. However, owing to the nature of the information contained in the crypto for the systems, it is not actually international. Some information is shared (US/UK), some is shared on a wider basis, but because ultimately no one actually trusts each other, the data is not llinked automatically. The ability to use "war plot" data (such as Link Systems) is also not shared on a wide basis - even the computer systems do not interact, and sometimes need ad hoc patching at certain levels of access control. Most allies embed people in the other forces, but they are not always given the priority and access they should have.

The guys in the plane were poorly briefed. They should have known (and it sounds like they did know, they just convinced themselves otherwise) that allies are marked with orange markings (chevrons, arrows). The data plot should have shown that allies were in the area, and the Aircraft Controller should have been aware of this and passed the information up the line.

The Iraqis did have rocket launchers and tanks, don't forget this was Invasion Day + 3, everyone was jumpy and desperate to do their job. The sad fact is that shit happens, especially when you rely on people to carry out a stressful, critical job, the outcome of which may affect the lives of your allies.

I feel sorry for them, and I feel sorry for the families involved. The MOD should be held accountable for lying about the tape.

 

[H block]

It's just breaking on the BBC that the coroner who demanded the video be produced, and has now said it will be shown as it is in the public domain, is not having his contract renewed When will someone hold this f***ing corrupt bunch of bastards to account.

And I'm a natural labour voter.

he was on a short term contract though................. but i know what you mean.

 

[H block]

No - disagree with you. The Labour MPs at the time were as misled as we all were. It's the apologists that with the benefit of hindsight still support the action that should be held accountable.

I dont agree. When Robin Cook said that the information available was inconclusive - concerning WMD - and that Blix should be allowed to carry on with his inspections (abeit under hindrance I know ) everyone should have smelt a rat.

You dont need hindsight just a liitle SIGHT.

 

[H block]

There are 2 issues being debated here.
The incident of the blue on blue will be half heartedly dealt with and NO_ONE will be held to task because the Americans will sweep it under the carpet as they did similar incidents in the first Golf war.
Even allowing for terrible accidents that will be inevitable under high pressure war conditions that is no excuse for the lack of transparency since the events.

As for the other issue of whether those planes should even have been in that airspace..................... see above.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Blue on blue - unfortunately part of modern warfare. Fast tempo, technology and human interference. The incident can be blamed on about 15 different people, from pilots, to intel, to Air Controllers, to mission briefers, to basic training and ident - and onwards.

The transparency is wrong. In a modern media world, everyone expects to see the full facts, and quickly. The military and certain parts of government would like to be working in the days of the pony express - slow and controlled release of information. They do not respond well to quickfire problems, and tend to cock them up.

Should they have been there in the first place? Bit late for that now, but I think that Tony knows the answer when he shuts his eyes at night. If he could have got GWBs dick out of his mouth, he may have been able to say no...Unjust war which caused more crises of confidence and belief in the ranks of the Forces than you will ever know.

 

[algie]

Blue on blue - unfortunately part of modern warfare. Fast tempo, technology and human interference. The incident can be blamed on about 15 different people, from pilots, to intel, to Air Controllers, to mission briefers, to basic training and ident - and onwards.

The transparency is wrong. In a modern media world, everyone expects to see the full facts, and quickly. The military and certain parts of government would like to be working in the days of the pony express - slow and controlled release of information. They do not respond well to quickfire problems, and tend to cock them up.

Should they have been there in the first place? Bit late for that now, but I think that Tony knows the answer when he shuts his eyes at night. If he could have got GWBs dick out of his mouth, he may have been able to say no...Unjust war which caused more crises of confidence and belief in the ranks of the Forces than you will ever know.

The bulk of the blame has to be down to the Yanks trainnig.These were reservists but the cover up is disgracefull

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The bulk of the blame has to be down to the Yanks trainnig.These were reservists.

Nope. They were National Guard. Some of the National Guard have three combat deployments under their belt - they are sometimes better trained than the USAF/USN/USMC pilots, and have more experience. This is not a "dad's army" - don't forget that our reservists make up a very large percentage of combat deployable troops these days.

The blame, however, does come down to Rules of Engagement and prior training on a general basis. Mistaking the armoured vehicles for ZILs is silly, even at 15K feet, believing that the Iraqis had orange missiles is silly, failing to get confirmation from a Link16 data picture of forces in the area is silly, or would be if they had the data transfers available. Not a very professional sequence of events, but unless you have been under that sort of pressure, it's not a judgement call that you have the right to make.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

The bulk of the blame has to be down to the Yanks trainnig.These were reservists but the cover up is disgracefull

Shocking that considering the budget that the US have for military affairs, these men are seemingly undertrained.

I would wait until absoultely certain that I knew who I was firing on, rather than the 'off-hand comment' from MANILA, that didn't seem to check. There was time and surely time to fly in closer to have a look.

 

[H block]

Shocking that considering the budget that the US have for military affairs, these men are seemingly undertrained.

I would wait until absoultely certain that I knew who I was firing on, rather than the 'off-hand comment' from MANILA, that didn't seem to check. There was time and surely time to fly in closer to have a look.

Made me feel sick. ''Hey Dude we goin ta jail.''

f***ing should be - incompetant twats.
If they were not sure they should have kept away.

 

[algie]

Nope. They were National Guard. Some of the National Guard have three combat deployments under their belt - they are sometimes better trained than the USAF/USN/USMC pilots, and have more experience. This is not a "dad's army" - don't forget that our reservists make up a very large percentage of combat deployable troops these days.

The blame, however, does come down to Rules of Engagement and prior training on a general basis. Mistaking the armoured vehicles for ZILs is silly, even at 15K feet, believing that the Iraqis had orange missiles is silly, failing to get confirmation from a Link16 data picture of forces in the area is silly, or would be if they had the data transfers available. Not a very professional sequence of events, but unless you have been under that sort of pressure, it's not a judgement call that you have the right to make.

From the Sun who broke the story


THE Sun today publishes the full, disturbing truth about how the US pilot of an A-10 tankbuster jet broke all the rules to shoot up a British convoy in the Iraq war.

We obtained the cockpit videotape at the centre of a diplomatic row between the two Allies.

It shows how the pilots — RESERVISTS who had never been in action before — made SIX crucial errors


They were inside an area US pilots had been told not to shoot into, and carried orange overhead canvas panels used to identify coalition forces to aircraft. They also displayed thermal reflectors and Union Flags.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Shocking that considering the budget that the US have for military affairs, these men are seemingly undertrained.

I would wait until absoultely certain that I knew who I was firing on, rather than the 'off-hand comment' from MANILA, that didn't seem to check. There was time and surely time to fly in closer to have a look.

Personally, with SAMs knocking around, taking a "flyby" is not something that I would be considering! Pre-war estimates were about 210 Surface to Air Missile launchers and some 150 Early Warning Radars. No one had an accurate count on the number of anti-aircraft guns, but there were thought to be more than 2,500 of them.

I would have hoped that information from the Air Controller and his Intel desk would have been more forthcoming. In conflict, you simply cannot err on the side of safety, no matter what the human rights lawyers would have you believe!

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Made me feel sick. ''Hey Dude we goin ta jail.''

f***ing should be - incompetant twats.
If they were not sure they should have kept away.

I was not sure at first, but I am beginning to see it that way. It was an unprovoked attack. That is very wrong IMO.

I feel that our forces out in Iraq have been badly let down and I would be thoroughly delighted if we had nothing further to do with the Americans.

I hope that this chap killed can now rest in peace.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

From the Sun who broke the story


THE Sun today publishes the full, disturbing truth about how the US pilot of an A-10 tankbuster jet broke all the rules to shoot up a British convoy in the Iraq war.

We obtained the cockpit videotape at the centre of a diplomatic row between the two Allies.

It shows how the pilots — RESERVISTS who had never been in action before — made SIX crucial errors


They were inside an area US pilots had been told not to shoot into, and carried orange overhead canvas panels used to identify coalition forces to aircraft. They also displayed thermal reflectors and Union Flags.

The Sun - cracking paper, and the Defence journo is a fool known in military circles as "Tom Neutron Dung". They talk rubbish, sell papers to the gullible, and then do retractions on page 43, under the adverts for "phone Mandy for light relief".....

The USAF do not have reservists, they use National Guard pilots. If you want to see the respect that the Sun is held, have a wander across to arrse.com or pprune.com where the professionals who do this for a living share information.....