[Politics] Westminster debate on returning football fans

[matski_98]

I can’t believe fans would continue to be excluded from stadiums on the basis of a subjective view of fairness. If it is safe it will happen.

If the local lockdowns continue I can see the clubs from the areas which are under lockdown kicking up a fuss if some clubs are allowed fans back and others aren't. Until all clubs are allowed to admit some fans I can't see it happening

 

[Weststander]

The major problem, as l see it at least, isn't in allowing a percentage of fans in to stadia watch a game, it's more about the logistics of getting them to and from the game safely en masse, whilst maintaining social distancing.

This.

And concourses. Going by the flagrant non-use of face masks in Sainsbury’s and Aldi Hove over the last then days by folk in their teens to forties, can 10,000 to 30,000 supporters be trusted to all wear face masks properly whilst in concourses, stairwells, loos and trains/buses?

 

[Weststander]

Why these damn louts of football fans can't do something constructive like blast the shit out of Grouse or other defenseless animals is beyond me? Bring back the birch and the workhouse don't you know....

Against bloodsports as much as you. But’s it’s outside in very low population settings.

Crowed Amex concourses, trains and buses are CV19 paradise.

 

[Seasidesage]

Against bloodsports as much as you. But’s it’s outside in very low population settings.

Crowed Amex concourses, trains and buses are CV19 paradise.

Don't disagree but its the double standards applied across the board that offend me. Pubs shut at 10, not in the HoC they didn't until the press got hold of it. If you are going to blast Grouse there is usually a social event around it, you have to pitch up at the moor, you need peasants to be bused in to scare the birds etc etc. Not to the same scale clearly but its either social distance or it isn't?

My problem is with how they exploit their privilege rather than whether football can support crowds again which is a more complex question.

 

[Weststander]

Don't disagree but its the double standards applied across the board that offend me. Pubs shut at 10, not in the HoC they didn't until the press got hold of it. If you are going to blast Grouse there is usually a social event around it, you have to pitch up at the moor, you need peasants to be bused in to scare the birds etc etc. Not to the same scale clearly but its either social distance or it isn't?

My problem is with how they exploit their privilege rather than whether football can support crowds again which is a more complex question.

I’m on the same page as you regarding bloodsports, the posh tossers and their rural henchmen running it all. Your passion is obvious.

But I don’t think it would be a high CV19 transmission activity.

Lots of injustices - large supermarkets selling toys, small toy shops forced to close. Plus the not so great British public ... increasing numbers refusing to wear masks ... saw an Aldi worker last week abused for politely asking a couple in their 30’s to wear a mask.

 

[Seasidesage]

I’m on the same page as you regarding bloodsports, the posh tossers and their rural henchmen running it all. Your passion is obvious.

But I don’t think it would be a high CV19 transmission activity.

Lots of injustices - large supermarkets selling toys, small toy shops forced to close. Plus the not so great British public ... increasing numbers refusing to wear masks ... saw an Aldi worker last week abused for politely asking a couple in their 30’s to wear a mask.

It's a pity people cannot politely issue a few slaps to people so ignorant as to put other peoples lives at risk because they are too stupid/lazy/thick/arrogant delete as applicable to wear a mask. Had a er conversation on the train back from London last week with some dickhead who thought he was special. I despair of the world I really do at times....

 

[Weststander]

It's a pity people cannot politely issue a few slaps to people so ignorant as to put other peoples lives at risk because they are too stupid/lazy/thick/arrogant delete as applicable to wear a mask. Had a er conversation on the train back from London last week with some dickhead who thought he was special. I despair of the world I really do at times....

I wish now that face masking in the UK was and is strongly enforced. I heard that some other countries make it mandatory in shops and travel and really mean it.

Covid deniers, simply wnkrs and faux libertarians spreading the disease to the vulnerable.

 

[maffew]

Seems impossible now without a vaccine doesnt it no matter how much individual clubs try. Theres surely going to be local and regional restrictions for many months to come ruling away fans out totally.

 

[father_and_son]

Nothing will be back exactly the way it was, vaccine or not.

We have a vaccine for measles, had it for years, but we still have measles.

We have never developed herd immunity to a disease... Ever.

Rather than debating how we go back we should be looking at how we live with this virus. We should be debating how to do things we want to do in a new way not futilely trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[Swansman]

Nothing will be back exactly the way it was, vaccine or not.

We have a vaccine for measles, had it for years, but we still have measles.

We have never developed herd immunity to a disease... Ever.

Rather than debating how we go back we should be looking at how we live with this virus. We should be debating how to do things we want to do in a new way not futilely trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

Sure vaccines are not going to eradicate it (most likely) but I disagree with the whole "never go back to normal" shit.

Very few diseases have permanently changed the way we live our normal lives and that should continue to be the case. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life trying to "do in a new way" because of this virus, just like I'm not doing any changes to my life just because there is small chance I could die from dengue fever.

People die from diseases and will likely to continue to do so. The reason why solving the Covid problem is urgent is not because some people die from it - because hey that is how life & death works - but because quite a lot of people die/get seriously ill from it.

1,2 million covid deaths this year is a reason to "live in a new way". If that number was 1000-10 000 people a year, I'm not going to run around thinking about it.

 

[razer]

The major problem, as l see it at least, isn't in allowing a percentage of fans in to stadia watch a game, it's more about the logistics of getting them to and from the game safely en masse, whilst maintaining social distancing.

The logistical problem is not insurmountable though is it?

 

[father_and_son]

Sure vaccines are not going to eradicate it (most likely) but I disagree with the whole "never go back to normal" shit.

Very few diseases have permanently changed the way we live our normal lives and that should continue to be the case. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life trying to "do in a new way" because of this virus, just like I'm not doing any changes to my life just because there is small chance I could die from dengue fever.

People die from diseases and will likely to continue to do so. The reason why solving the Covid problem is urgent is not because some people die from it - because hey that is how life & death works - but because quite a lot of people die/get seriously ill from it.

1,2 million covid deaths this year is a reason to "live in a new way". If that number was 1000-10 000 people a year, I'm not going to run around thinking about it.

No disease in the past 100 years has led to stay-at-home orders.

We are in completely uncharted territory here and pretending it will just go away (with or without a vaccine) will just result in the death toll continuing to go up and up - leading to the question, at what point does society in general become desensitised to it and stop caring.

Again... We have never developed herd immunity to a disease and our track record of eradicating viruses isn't even worth considering.

There is no back-to-normal. We are going to have to live (and die) with this virus for good now.

We have a virus that is more contagious and deadlier than anything we have faced for 100years and medicine, as it stands, is pretty much powerless (as the death toll shows).

There is no 'solving' this. There is only learning to live with it. And learning to live with it is going to take living a different way than we lived before.


The quicker the entire human race grasps this and stops the Trumpian head-in-the-sand, "it'll just go away" or that a vaccine somehow magically eradicates a deadly virus in half a football season. When no other vaccine, bar one, has ever worked and that took decades.

 

[swindonseagull]

Against bloodsports as much as you. But’s it’s outside in very low population settings.

Crowed Amex concourses, trains and buses are CV19 paradise.

I know it would upset a 'few' people but if the food outlets and bars were to remain closed there would be no over crowded concourses.

I guess it will depend on if people want to get back to watching football or just to drink and eat?

 

[blue-shifted]

No disease in the past 100 years has led to stay-at-home orders.

We are in completely uncharted territory here and pretending it will just go away (with or without a vaccine) will just result in the death toll continuing to go up and up - leading to the question, at what point does society in general become desensitised to it and stop caring.

Again... We have never developed herd immunity to a disease and our track record of eradicating viruses isn't even worth considering.

There is no back-to-normal. We are going to have to live (and die) with this virus for good now.

We have a virus that is more contagious and deadlier than anything we have faced for 100years and medicine, as it stands, is pretty much powerless (as the death toll shows).

There is no 'solving' this. There is only learning to live with it. And learning to live with it is going to take living a different way than we lived before.


The quicker the entire human race grasps this and stops the Trumpian head-in-the-sand, "it'll just go away" or that a vaccine somehow magically eradicates a deadly virus in half a football season. When no other vaccine, bar one, has ever worked and that took decades.

This morning, you may have been right, but the real world difference between a 90% effective vaccine and, say a 60% vaccine will be huge

In addition to the vaccine, there is a great chance of more effective treatments for the seriously ill in the short to medium term.

I'm planning on getting back to normal as soon as poss after I get the shot. Stay in this winter. Get back to living, when the sun comes out next year. We've hidden away enough.

 

[father_and_son]

This morning, you may have been right, but the real world difference between a 90% effective vaccine and, say a 60% vaccine will be huge

In addition to the vaccine, there is a great chance of more effective treatments for the seriously ill in the short to medium term.

I'm planning on getting back to normal as soon as poss after I get the shot. Stay in this winter. Get back to living, when the sun comes out next year. We've hidden away enough.

90% effective still means several million dying, plus many more ill but recovering - and we don't know what the long term implications are.
And that's if there was 100% take up and life time immunity... Neither of which is even remotely possible.

Absolutely we have to get on with living and that means stopping hiding away... But 'back-to-normal' isn't possible. We need to work out what a new-normal needs to look like.

 

[Pint of Ale and a Burger]

Nothing will be back exactly the way it was, vaccine or not.

We have a vaccine for measles, had it for years, but we still have measles.

We have never developed herd immunity to a disease... Ever.

Rather than debating how we go back we should be looking at how we live with this virus. We should be debating how to do things we want to do in a new way not futilely trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

Yes,this is my thinking to.
The club have shown how a stadium can function with covid secure measures in place and I would feel quite happy there.
The issue is the fans getting to and leaving the ground but I'm sure that can be managed in a sensible way also.
The other issue as others have pointed out is the human behaviour element but this can also be managed as part of the travel arrangements and ticket terms and conditions.
I would still like to get Christmas out the way then start looking at how we can get back to the games from January.

 

[beorhthelm]

Nothing will be back exactly the way it was, vaccine or not.

We have a vaccine for measles, had it for years, but we still have measles.

We have never developed herd immunity to a disease... Ever.

Rather than debating how we go back we should be looking at how we live with this virus. We should be debating how to do things we want to do in a new way not futilely trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

a list of virus we barely hear of due to vaccines. we eradicated smallpox too.

90% effective still means several million dying, plus many more ill but recovering - and we don't know what the long term implications are.

90% efficacy means heard immunity, even lower will be effective. a person with the virus has to come into contact with someone not immune and probability is very small. they are then unlikely to spread it on either.

 

[n1 gull]

No disease in the past 100 years has led to stay-at-home orders.

We are in completely uncharted territory here and pretending it will just go away (with or without a vaccine) will just result in the death toll continuing to go up and up - leading to the question, at what point does society in general become desensitised to it and stop caring.

Again... We have never developed herd immunity to a disease and our track record of eradicating viruses isn't even worth considering.

There is no back-to-normal. We are going to have to live (and die) with this virus for good now.

We have a virus that is more contagious and deadlier than anything we have faced for 100years and medicine, as it stands, is pretty much powerless (as the death toll shows).

There is no 'solving' this. There is only learning to live with it. And learning to live with it is going to take living a different way than we lived before.


The quicker the entire human race grasps this and stops the Trumpian head-in-the-sand, "it'll just go away" or that a vaccine somehow magically eradicates a deadly virus in half a football season. When no other vaccine, bar one, has ever worked and that took decades.

Absolute nonsense

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

I lost interest in this debate the moment Barber basically said in the q&a he didn't give a shit about what the train and bus providers do.

...despite it being included in the cost of the ticket and it being the main concern of many. Even for cup games with lower tiers open, travel is still much busier than anything I'd feel comfortable with right now and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[Swansman]

No disease in the past 100 years has led to stay-at-home orders.

We are in completely uncharted territory here and pretending it will just go away (with or without a vaccine) will just result in the death toll continuing to go up and up - leading to the question, at what point does society in general become desensitised to it and stop caring.

Again... We have never developed herd immunity to a disease and our track record of eradicating viruses isn't even worth considering.

There is no back-to-normal. We are going to have to live (and die) with this virus for good now.

We have a virus that is more contagious and deadlier than anything we have faced for 100years and medicine, as it stands, is pretty much powerless (as the death toll shows).

There is no 'solving' this. There is only learning to live with it. And learning to live with it is going to take living a different way than we lived before.


The quicker the entire human race grasps this and stops the Trumpian head-in-the-sand, "it'll just go away" or that a vaccine somehow magically eradicates a deadly virus in half a football season. When no other vaccine, bar one, has ever worked and that took decades.

Ah. Classic. You are going to compare me to Trump because I dont think humanity should change its way of life - forever - because of this virus? The arguing of the desperate.

I agree that this virus is probably staying forever, but when a vaccine and/or natural lessened mortality of this virus decreases the number of deaths significantly, I'm going to go back to normal. I hopefully have 40 or 50 years left to live and I'm not going to spend it in some Covid-19-adapted version of life.

I might die from it. I might die from the influenza viruses that have killed 50-100 million people over the last hundred years or so. I might die from some heart disease. But the fact that I might die from any of these, or any other disease, wont rule my life. I'm far more afraid of not living than I am of death.

It is not "deadlier than anything we've seen for a 100 years". If you get Covid-19 you have a very good chance of surviving. If you got HIV in the 80s you had no chance of surviving. And sure, that had lasting consequences especially in some communities and I'm sure that at the time, some people thought "gay culture is dead forever". Happily it turned out to be wrong. Sure, people might be a little bit more careful about sex because of it, but they are back dancing - back to pretty much normal. And with a far less dangerous virus like covid-19, people should be able to go back to exactly normal.

That no other virus in the last 100 years lead to "stay at home" orders is also no argument. With the mass communcation, technology and ability to gather data today, it is both easier to know when to give those "stay at home orders" and to actually reach virtually every human with those orders.

If the same technology was available in lets say 1957, it is quite possible that "stay at home orders" would have been given in order to prevent the flu pandemic that killed over a million people, but it was practically impossible at the time. The fact that we have new tools to do this does not mean that this pandemic is a reason to forever change how we live. For moment, yes, in the long run: **** that shit.