[News] Vaccination crisis

[dejavuatbtn]

During the Covid crisis I upgraded my knowledge about how vaccination and herd immunity works. Essentially vaccination makes the individual's immune system respond more quickly to infection. But if the virus or bacterium exposure is very high it could 'beat' the immune system in an individual.

Of course the more people in the population not vaccinated, the easier it is for the disease to spread in the population, increasing the exposure of the pathogen we all experience. Eventually if enough people fail to be vaccinated we reach a tipping point, and a pandemic may emerge.

Worryingly increasing numbers of kids are not getting routine vaccination. The problem is worst in London. This needs a serious up-step on education.

In addition, it concerns me that conscientious vaccinated folk run the risk of serious disease because ignorant and/or deluded parents are not getting their kids vaccinated. Perhaps we need laws to ensure that kids cannot attend state school if they are not vaccinated. Unfortunately the thickies will probably embrace home schooling. Much of this has been propagated by fake news websites and the arse who triggered the MMR/autism disaster.

Child vaccinations: Low uptake prompts tipping-point warning

There are concerns over the spread of diseases such as whooping cough in England, as vaccine rates fall.

www.bbc.co.uk

I’ve got a compromised immune system and accepted an invitation for a jab a couple of months ago, only to get covid a month later - I’d got flu symptoms and bought a kit (5 tests for £10.50) and was positive. Took 15 days to clear, self isolating for the whole period, and I’m left pretty much wiped out with very low energy levels. On the basis of what we are being told, how much worse could I have been? Dead, like my mum?
I don’t think people are thinking “covid” any more - either that or not prepared to buy the kits. Talking to people, there’s a hell of a lot of it about still. If the strains keeps changing and it remains out of control, yes, I can see a pandemic on the horizon.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’ve got a compromised immune system and accepted an invitation for a jab a couple of months ago, only to get covid a month later - I’d got flu symptoms and bought a kit (5 tests for £10.50) and was positive. Took 15 days to clear, self isolating for the whole period, and I’m left pretty much wiped out with very low energy levels. On the basis of what we are being told, how much worse could I have been? Dead, like my mum?
I don’t think people are thinking “covid” any more - either that or not prepared to buy the kits. Talking to people, there’s a hell of a lot of it about still. If the strains keeps changing and it remains out of control, yes, I can see a pandemic on the horizon.

Good for you, getting vaccinated. It could indeed have been worse.

Personally I will continue to vaccinate to reduce the risk of spreading it around. Keep my viral titre low even if I do catch it.

There is enough immunity around now, due to vaccination and exposure to Covid, to mean that the risks to individuals, and the risk of spreading large amounts of virus to people is much less than it was. But I don't recall any official announcement the pandemic is over....

 

[Commander]

Absolutely not.

My kids ended up having one dose each, we didn't bother with the second - they've been fine, I've had COVID twice, but not been killed by it thanks to being fully vaccinated.

Or the fact that it was about 99.9% unlikely to kill you anyway.

 

[beorhthelm]

Good for you, getting vaccinated. It could indeed have been worse.

Personally I will continue to vaccinate to reduce the risk of spreading it around. Keep my viral titre low even if I do catch it.

There is enough immunity around now, due to vaccination and exposure to Covid, to mean that the risks to individuals, and the risk of spreading large amounts of virus to people is much less than it was. But I don't recall any official announcement the pandemic is over....

wasn't much fanfare, some time mid-2023 we stopped doing specific data for it.
WHO overview not a "Public Health Emergency of International Concern", still a pandemic but no longer an emergency.

 

[drew]

Whoah there! What do you mean by vaccinations? Are you talking about the Covid vaccine or other vaccines? Both of my kids have had all their childhood vaccinations, the eldest one was vaccinated before the MMR thing came out, the youngest one was still vaccinated after the MMR thing came out.
Are you actually calling me a thicko for not being too keen for my youngest to have the Covid vaccine?
My eldest had it (as it was his choice) my youngest was (sort of) offered the choice. I wholeheartedly admit that I said to him I know nothing about the vaccine & would prefer him not to have it.

You know I'm somewhat anti 'big pharma' when it comes to possibly 'non medical' issues. I think I've probably mentioned to you that something I was told was 'safe-ish' at the time was actually not, they've admitted it, the PIL has been changed, the prescribing guidance has completely changed. I'm well within my rights to join the class action lawsuit & get some £'s out of it. I'm not as the damage has been done & joining it for money isn't going to change that. They've been prescribing it since the 60's and it's taken 40 years for them to realise that they had missed some potential side effects.

I'm not going to apologise for saying to my youngest that I know nothing about the Covid vaccine & he should perhaps basically let other people be the guinea pigs. I've been the guinea pig & it didn't turn out too well. As for the Covid LFT they're bloody useless. I had my eldest (who'd had the vaccine) & someone else sitting around my Xmas dinner table who'd both taken the test (they were completely unrelated to each other) as they felt that they may have Covid (they both looked & felt really shit), both tests were neg. One went for a PCR the next day and was positive, my eldest went the day after that and he was also positive.

I watched my best friends 11 year old daughter die from leukaemia 19 years ago, so I don't need lectures about those whose immune systems are compromised. I would give anything to see her again. Would I have gone to see her during Covid when everything was reopening again? Probably yes as the LFT's were telling me she would be fine. Actually that's crap, I knew she was dying & would've broken every rule to say goodbye to her anyway.

The only person I know that has had Covid 3 times is my eldest who's had the vaccines. I'm not saying there's a big conspiracy, it does however seen pretty useless as a 'vaccine' that's supposed to stop you getting it or even to stop you getting it as 'bad'. I don't want to be a guinea pig again, I don't want my kids to be a guinea pig. That doesn't make me a bad person, it makes me someone who's cautious. It may make me very selfish when I say... 'you can all go first' but that's what I think. I'm fully aware that I'm going to get pelters for my opinion. I'm not going to pretend that I've read 'loads of papers' on it, as I haven't read any. I don't listen to 'podcasts' or go down conspiracy theory rabbit holes. I have no reasons aside from the fact I don't feel comfortable with it. I've already admitted to being selfish & it would be pointless to say that I'm selfish, as I know I am about this!!

I'm going to watch the 2nd half now & will deal with the pelters I'm going to get in the morning but I really don't have anything to add. I've already written an essay!

Not sure you can generalise so much about LFTs. There maybe a number of reasons why negative tests came up, possibly incorrect method, not enough viral load at that point or may have been a faulty test kit. That doesn't make them all useless. Christmas eve 2020, I had a negative LFT, as did my wife, but my daughter was positive. We had PCR tests on Christmas morning. Came back positive for me and my daughter but negative for my wife. As such we isolated until we got negative tests and were clear for whatever number of days were required. I was asymptomatic throughout but my daughter was quite ill, ie bad flu like symptoms.

As for the vaccines, I've had everyone, including boosters each year, with no side effects. I have had covid about 4 times but hopefully the vaccines kept the symptoms tolerable. Pretty certain no-one has claimed the vaccines guarantee immunity but if they reduce the effects of having covid and contributing to herd immunity then they are a societal benefit.

 

[drew]

wasn't much fanfare, some time mid-2023 we stopped doing specific data for it.
WHO overview not a "Public Health Emergency of International Concern", still a pandemic but no longer an emergency.

The UK stopped suppling data long before anyone else did. Guessing it didn't suit the Tories.

 

[beorhthelm]

The UK stopped suppling data long before anyone else did. Guessing it didn't suit the Tories.

was refering to my employer providing data. UK gov is still publishing data this month https://ukhsa-dashboard.data.gov.uk/topics/covid-19

 

[drew]

was refering to my employer providing data. UK gov is still publishing data this month https://ukhsa-dashboard.data.gov.uk/topics/covid-19

Fair enough but the UK stop updating the worldmeters long before other governments.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Having had whooping cough as a child, I don't understand why any parent would increase their child's changes of catching this.

One of my most vivid memories as a child is head bowed down under a tea towel over a saucepan of bowling water, breathing in the steam.

It's no fun.

My 10 yr old grandson has whooping cough as I type. He's been vaccinated against it apparently...

 

[Barham's tash]

And here from an NHS website, data on vaccination in general.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/south-east/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2021/05/Vaccination-and-race-religion-and-belief-A4.pdf

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Clearly we need to target certain ethnic groups in particular to get this fixed.

came to say the same but didn’t have the data so thanks for that.

In my daughter’s school in NW London the main ethnicities I would consider to be South Asian (Indian, Sri Lankan & Bangladeshi), white British and Eastern European (mainly Romanian).

The level of distrust in the South Asian And Eastern European populations is staggering.

I see first hand the propaganda the South Asian communities receive due to my in laws - you thought western MSM is bonkers you’ve literally not lived until you’ve spent half an hour watching what passes for MSM in India with their baseless and sensationalist claims on ANYTHING let alone the ludicrous takes we were subjected to by my father in law during Covid.

IMO it’s an unbelievable uphill battle to educate these populations around importance and efficacy of maintaining vaccination uptake in their kids when the parents walk around believing all kinds of complete rubbish about everything from vaccines to contrails and other assorted bs. It’s literally a total waste of money.

 

[Cotton Socks]

Not sure you can generalise so much about LFTs. There maybe a number of reasons why negative tests came up, possibly incorrect method, not enough viral load at that point or may have been a faulty test kit. That doesn't make them all useless. Christmas eve 2020, I had a negative LFT, as did my wife, but my daughter was positive. We had PCR tests on Christmas morning. Came back positive for me and my daughter but negative for my wife. As such we isolated until we got negative tests and were clear for whatever number of days were required. I was asymptomatic throughout but my daughter was quite ill, ie bad flu like symptoms.

As for the vaccines, I've had everyone, including boosters each year, with no side effects. I have had covid about 4 times but hopefully the vaccines kept the symptoms tolerable. Pretty certain no-one has claimed the vaccines guarantee immunity but if they reduce the effects of having covid and contributing to herd immunity then they are a societal benefit.

Ok perhaps I shouldn't have generalised and said they are all useless. At the time of the LFT's we had to stick them everywhere (not literally), they were 2 separate people from 2 isolated places. it would be strange if their batches were the same. . I can't remember whether it was Xmas 2020 or 2021. Neg on LFT so they came here spreading their germs. One had the PCR on Boxing day, the other had a PCR test the day after. They quarantined (as did I) and it worked out that I had to stay in longer than them as I didn't have a positive test or symptoms. Not that there was anywhere to go but it was the principle! I can't find the emoji to say that I wasn't really annoyed.
I was however somewhat miffed when I came down with it the day after boxing day in 2022, I felt bloody awful did an LFT & neg, so no-one bought me food to my doorstep. 2 days later I decided to do another one as I was on the verge of a major clean as I couldn't work out where a smell that was driving me mad was coming from., That test was instantly positive. . I rang people & say 'sorry' just in case I'd given it to them.
I think the 1st idea of the vaccine was that it would prevent you from getting it, then it changed to 'you might, but just not as bad'.
I'm still not going to feel bad for not telling my son to have the vaccine. I am really honestly selfish enough on this to say 'you all go first'. I'm not usually selfish but on this I am. I'm not encouraging my kids to be a guinea pig like I was. One had it anyway as he thought he wouldn't be able to go anywhere unless he did & that was completely up to him. I've already said that I influenced my youngest's decision. No scare stories about chips or any other mad stuff, just simply I don't know anything about it. If he randomly gets offered a vaccine (he's now out of the age range of who it's being offered to) I'm not going to try and influence his decision now.
They've both had their 'childhood' vaccinations for MMR etc & the only thing I know about their safety, is years of evidence. I'm happy with years of research and evidence.. I just don't feel comfortable with the short timeline there appears to be so far.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Indeed.

I'm interested in, but not concerned by the reasons unless they help inform a pathway to solutions.

Nice reasoning!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

came to say the same but didn’t have the data so thanks for that.

In my daughter’s school in NW London the main ethnicities I would consider to be South Asian (Indian, Sri Lankan & Bangladeshi), white British and Eastern European (mainly Romanian).

The level of distrust in the South Asian And Eastern European populations is staggering.

I see first hand the propaganda the South Asian communities receive due to my in laws - you thought western MSM is bonkers you’ve literally not lived until you’ve spent half an hour watching what passes for MSM in India with their baseless and sensationalist claims on ANYTHING let alone the ludicrous takes we were subjected to by my father in law during Covid.

IMO it’s an unbelievable uphill battle to educate these populations around importance and efficacy of maintaining vaccination uptake in their kids when the parents walk around believing all kinds of complete rubbish about everything from vaccines to contrails and other assorted bs. It’s literally a total waste of money.

Sad and worrying isn't it. I may be wrong but I suspect it is really hard for 'the system' to target specific demographic groups (whether ethnic, social class or religious) in the wider sense (not just NHS) without being accused of being patronizing, being 'classist', being 'colonial' or 'whitesplaining'. The 'nanny state' trope will also be exhumed by our right wing chums, too, the unhelpful chumps.

One avenue would be to harness the troops in the NHS, which could be facilitated by the high representation of, for example, GPs of South Asian heritage working in the NHS. However there would be lots of push-back. For example, doctor behaviors are rigorously predicated by the GMC, and the medic attitude that their province is medicine full stop, not politics. That is defensible (even though I disagree with it). So is it possible to persuade GPs that 'demographic targeting' is in the best interests of those individuals being targeted as well as the population? There is a much better appreciation of the value of the 'greater good' now, but it is not accepted if it is at the expense of the individual. The question is where does one draw the line? I suspect some GPs think that any small risk to an individual overrides any benefit there may be to the population, although I am unsure of the precise view. If I were minister of health this would be the first question I'd want to explore.

Stepping back, having got the GMC and GPs on boards, demographic targeting with the imprimatur of the NHS strikes me as the best way forward. Lots of lovely (for example) GPs and consultants of South Asian heritage fronting up the videos, the youtube clips, the 'X'-tat (I don't use X - fancy that) and so on.

I see no reason why mainstream society should be afraid of the conspiracy theory lobby or the class-war lobby, or whatever lobby it is that 'defends' ethnic minorities from being 'whitesplained'. A bit of clarity of thought from HMG would help. It is far to early to say how well Starmer will respond to any imputation, and whether he has the nerve and clarity of vision to find some guns and stick to them. Put Mr Streeting on it, I say! We really do need to vaccinate all our kids.

(Hope to meet up at our next Wembley outing, organizational wherewithal permitting )