[News] Vaccination crisis

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Whoah there! What do you mean by vaccinations? Are you talking about the Covid vaccine or other vaccines? Both of my kids have had all their childhood vaccinations, the eldest one was vaccinated before the MMR thing came out, the youngest one was still vaccinated after the MMR thing came out.
Are you actually calling me a thicko for not being too keen for my youngest to have the Covid vaccine?
My eldest had it (as it was his choice) my youngest was (sort of) offered the choice. I wholeheartedly admit that I said to him I know nothing about the vaccine & would prefer him not to have it.

You know I'm somewhat anti 'big pharma' when it comes to possibly 'non medical' issues. I think I've probably mentioned to you that something I was told was 'safe-ish' at the time was actually not, they've admitted it, the PIL has been changed, the prescribing guidance has completely changed. I'm well within my rights to join the class action lawsuit & get some £'s out of it. I'm not as the damage has been done & joining it for money isn't going to change that. They've been prescribing it since the 60's and it's taken 40 years for them to realise that they had missed some potential side effects.

I'm not going to apologise for saying to my youngest that I know nothing about the Covid vaccine & he should perhaps basically let other people be the guinea pigs. I've been the guinea pig & it didn't turn out too well. As for the Covid LFT they're bloody useless. I had my eldest (who'd had the vaccine) & someone else sitting around my Xmas dinner table who'd both taken the test (they were completely unrelated to each other) as they felt that they may have Covid (they both looked & felt really shit), both tests were neg. One went for a PCR the next day and was positive, my eldest went the day after that and he was also positive.

I watched my best friends 11 year old daughter die from leukaemia 19 years ago, so I don't need lectures about those whose immune systems are compromised. I would give anything to see her again. Would I have gone to see her during Covid when everything was reopening again? Probably yes as the LFT's were telling me she would be fine. Actually that's crap, I knew she was dying & would've broken every rule to say goodbye to her anyway.

The only person I know that has had Covid 3 times is my eldest who's had the vaccines. I'm not saying there's a big conspiracy, it does however seen pretty useless as a 'vaccine' that's supposed to stop you getting it or even to stop you getting it as 'bad'. I don't want to be a guinea pig again, I don't want my kids to be a guinea pig. That doesn't make me a bad person, it makes me someone who's cautious. It may make me very selfish when I say... 'you can all go first' but that's what I think. I'm fully aware that I'm going to get pelters for my opinion. I'm not going to pretend that I've read 'loads of papers' on it, as I haven't read any. I don't listen to 'podcasts' or go down conspiracy theory rabbit holes. I have no reasons aside from the fact I don't feel comfortable with it. I've already admitted to being selfish & it would be pointless to say that I'm selfish, as I know I am about this!!

I'm going to watch the 2nd half now & will deal with the pelters I'm going to get in the morning but I really don't have anything to add. I've already written an essay!

I'm more concerned about measles, mumps polio and suchlike. Covid is another story, with vaccination of kids useful primarily to creating herd immunity for the elderly and other vulnerable groups, so I can see how that might be a different risk/benefit calculation for parents. There appears to be a 'cultural' antipathy among certain groups regarding vaccination against disease that are a real threat to kids. That's my concern.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

My niece's boyfriend (now ex) caught mumps a year ago, was very ill and hospitalized. He was 22. He'd never had MMR 'cos mum didn't believe in it '

A perfect example of my concern. Mumps can leave a man sterile if he gets it after puberty.

Something else I have ranted on about passim is our poor risk/benefit capacity. We tend to make decision based on what suits our prejudices and imperatives (vide smoking vs flying vs speeding). There may be a need for more coercion, but only when reasonable persuasion is failing, to the detriment of the wider population. The latter may be what is on the cusp in London presently. Tricky conversations ahead.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My niece's boyfriend (now ex) caught mumps a year ago, was very ill and hospitalized. He was 22. He'd never had MMR 'cos mum didn't believe in it '

And more than likely left sterile.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

‘….ooh, you’ve been published, can you send me a link, I’d love to read it’ works well too

Steady. I may have to send you some PDFs. But my published papers are long, wordy and tedious so your will to live may find itself under threat. Fancy that

 

[raymondo]

A perfect example of my concern. Mumps can leave a man sterile if he gets it after puberty.

Something else I have ranted on about passim is our poor risk/benefit capacity. We tend to make decision based on what suits our prejudices and imperatives (vide smoking vs flying vs speeding). There may be a need for more coercion, but only when reasonable persuasion is failing, to the detriment of the wider population. The latter may be what is on the cusp in London presently. Tricky conversations ahead.

Agreed, difficult conversations.
I would like to see many more discussions on TV involving scientists, maybe mixed with politicians, medical where appropriate. Like a 'Question Time ' series,various topics of public health concern.

 

[StonehamPark]

A perfect example of my concern. Mumps can leave a man sterile if he gets it after puberty.

Something else I have ranted on about passim is our poor risk/benefit capacity. We tend to make decision based on what suits our prejudices and imperatives (vide smoking vs flying vs speeding). There may be a need for more coercion, but only when reasonable persuasion is failing, to the detriment of the wider population. The latter may be what is on the cusp in London presently. Tricky conversations ahead.

I'm all for conversation about the issue of vaccinations and particularly the analysis of groups getting vaccinated and not, and the various reasons why.
And I think this thread is going well and it's been personally interesting to read others' opinions on NSC, so far I think it's proof that generally sensible conversation can definitely be had, even between various groups of people who have a variety of opinions on the issue.

I'm wondering if you could expand on the text I've emboldened from your post, referencing the possible need or idea to potentially further "coerce" people.

Also, what is on the cusp in London presently? I may have missed something in the thread, or if it's something else I'd be interested in knowing being over here, I don't see much of the news in the UK (or London) at all.

 

[Jackthelad]

No one should be forced or blackmailed into vaccinations that's a dangerous road to go down. The rules at the moment are correct and should stay that way.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm all for conversation about the issue of vaccinations and particularly the analysis of groups getting vaccinated and not, and the various reasons why.
And I think this thread is going well and it's been personally interesting to read others' opinions on NSC, so far I think it's proof that generally sensible conversation can definitely be had, even between various groups of people who have a variety of opinions on the issue.

I'm wondering if you could expand on the text I've emboldened from your post, referencing the possible need or idea to potentially further "coerce" people.

Also, what is on the cusp in London presently? I may have missed something in the thread, or if it's something else I'd be interested in knowing being over here, I don't see much of the news in the UK (or London) at all.

Thanks for you kind comments.

What is happening in London, as per my link in the opening post, is that childhood preventable illnesses like measles are reaching a threshold for 'concern' due to regional antipathy to vaccination. I did a search and found that there is an alarming lack of vaccine take up in some areas. The demographic in London maps to the demographic recorded by HMG as not engaging with vaccination. See my data link posts in this thread.

I used the word coercion unwisely. What I mean is persuasion. A strategy for persuasion is needed. I would like to see community leaders engaging with this. With HMG backing. Education, in fact.

(as a wet lefty refugee-welcoming antiracist perhaps I am in a good position to raise the question 'how do we persuade the parents who won't vaccinate their kids against kid-threatening illness, recognising the demographics most identifiable in this' with the aim of making things better without demonization. I hope Labour will grasp the nettle. It isn't an easy nettle to grasp given the ease with which pressure groups weaponize against people who dare to ask awkward questions, and indeed while others weaponize against ethnic minorities).

 

[StonehamPark]

Thanks for you kind comments.

What is happening in London, as per my link in the opening post, is that childhood preventable illnesses like measles are reaching a threshold for 'concern' due to regional antipathy to vaccination. I did a search and found that there is an alarming lack of vaccine take up in some areas. The demographic in London maps to the demographic recorded by HMG as not engaging with vaccination. See my data link posts in this thread.

I used the word coercion unwisely. What I mean is persuasion. A strategy for persuasion is needed. I would like to see community leaders engaging with this. With HMG backing. Education, in fact.

(as a wet lefty refugee-welcoming antiracist perhaps I am in a good position to raise the question 'how do we persuade the parents who won't vaccinate their kids against kid-threatening illness, recognising the demographics most identifiable in this' with the aim of making things better without demonization. I hope Labour will grasp the nettle. It isn't an easy nettle to grasp given the ease with which pressure groups weaponize against people who dare to ask awkward questions, and indeed while others weaponize against ethnic minorities).

Ah I skipped right over the opening post specifying London in relation to the stats - apologies! I'm posting whilst I'm supposed to be working.

And I totally understand about the wording, I think the idea of persuasion is generally fair.

I was a little concerned and worried when I saw you had written 'coerced', and presumed (hoped) it may have just been a case of a wrong word used. Having digitally known you for quite a few years now, I'm always interested in reading your posts and opinions with respect to you, regardless as to whether the content or argument is aligned with mine.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I’m 60 now but got measles when I was about two.
I was apparently very very ill but was kept home as being in hospital wouldn’t have helped. The room was blacked out and doctor told my parents ‘if he gets through the next couple days then he’ll be ok’. It was touch and go. I was also very lucky that I didn’t have any of the conditions that go with it.

i made a bit of a joke about research and lit reviews earlier in the thread but when it came time to readup on MMR, the **** Wakefield and side effects of MMR it certainly helped sift the wheat from the chaff. MMR is a no brainer.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ah I skipped right over the opening post specifying London in relation to the stats - apologies! I'm posting whilst I'm supposed to be working.

And I totally understand about the wording, I think the idea of persuasion is generally fair.

I was a little concerned and worried when I saw you had written 'coerced', and presumed (hoped) it may have just been a case of a wrong word used. Having digitally known you for quite a few years now, I'm always interested in reading your posts and opinions with respect to you, regardless as to whether the content or argument is aligned with mine.

Noted, and appreciated

 

[GT49er]

The word ‘vaccines’ troubles me when used like this. Especially with ‘anti-vax’.

Because it makes it sound like they are all the same.

You can be unconvinced about certain vaccines while still being very pro others

My kids are vaccinated against all the usual stuff, I’m very pro-vaccines. Was I going to give them the Covid vaccines that were a year old with no long-term data for a disease that didn’t really affect them? No f***ing chance.

Does that make me an anti-vaxxer?

No, of course it doesn't - you've obviously done your own research very well!

 

[Baldseagull]

No one should be forced or blackmailed into vaccinations that's a dangerous road to go down. The rules at the moment are correct and should stay that way.

For me this is a grey area with kids. A child or infant isn't capable of making the decision themselves reasonably.
As a society we would intervene if a parent neglected their child's welfare, and it is an issue of their welfare, and that of the wider society. So a part of me thinks MMR should be compulsory, though I also do not like that instinctively.

 

[Curious Orange]

The word ‘vaccines’ troubles me when used like this. Especially with ‘anti-vax’.

Because it makes it sound like they are all the same.

You can be unconvinced about certain vaccines while still being very pro others, surely?!

My kids are vaccinated against all the usual stuff, I’m very pro-vaccines. Was I going to give them the Covid vaccines that were a year old with no long-term data for a disease that didn’t really affect them? No f***ing chance.

Does that make me an anti-vaxxer?

Absolutely not.

My kids ended up having one dose each, we didn't bother with the second - they've been fine, I've had COVID twice, but not been killed by it thanks to being fully vaccinated.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

That's all well and good HWT but Baz said on Facebook the other day that he'd done his own research and he said that vaccines are just the latest effort by THE ELITE (not the All Elite Wrestling VIPs, obvs) to control the population this time via Mind Control Microchips and 5G Brain Flaying.

He'd done research. Research.

You've left out alien races. Someone I know believes all that, is a rabid anti-vaxxer and also believes that there are a number (6 I believe) of alien races living among us. She is also a qualified nurse who administers medicines.

 

[Mental Lental]

Absolutely not.

My kids ended up having one dose each, we didn't bother with the second - they've been fine, I've had COVID twice, but not been killed by it thanks to being fully vaccinated.

I've had 4 doses of the vaccine and COVID itself 3 times. My immune system is expecting it to buy flowers the next time it comes round.

 

[BBassic]

You've left out alien races. Someone I know believes all that, is a rabid anti-vaxxer and also believes that there are a number (6 I believe) of alien races living among us. She is also a qualified nurse who administers medicines.

See this is where the pandora's box that is my belief system lets me down as, whilst I've no time for people who think vaccines are anything but a method to prevent disease, I could totally buy into the idea of deep state alien races living on Earth, influencing things.

I've decided it's because I'm a science fiction dork rather than indicative of the fact that I may, in fact, be a crackpot.

 

[Baldseagull]

See this is where the pandora's box that is my belief system lets me down as, whilst I've no time for people who think vaccines are anything but a method to prevent disease, I could totally buy into the idea of deep state alien races living on Earth, influencing things.

I've decided it's because I'm a science fiction dork rather than indicative of the fact that I may, in fact, be a crackpot.

I can accept the possibility of many seemingly crazy ideas, but mostly I would describe myself as an atheist. With Lizard people I am agnostic.

 

[AstroSloth]

Have you seen the Danica Patrick podcast? If not this is a great summary

 

[beorhthelm]

Have you seen the Danica Patrick podcast? If not this is a great summary

funny how it's always a an important point, something about the change... then it never does. honestly makes you wonder if we should go back to conventional religions and their simpler myths.