king Wombat
Well-known member
shoot the lot of them i say. UKIP out!!
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UKIP nonsense...
- Thread starter clapham_gull
- Start date
clapham_gull said:
I don't know whether he said it or not but it is true.
Part of the new constitution defines how the legal systems of EU members should be brought together. The aim is to make it more like that of France. You have to prove you're not guilty rather than here it is the other way round. Also all but the most serious of crimes are tried before judges rather than juries ( you personally can not choose for a trial by jury as you can here - a judge decides).
Highfields Seagull
Well-known member
I'm not quite sure how you can oppose anything before it has actually been written.
No-one can be sure what is actually going to be in the final constitution, or which parts members may be able to opt out of, as the nations themselves haven't agreed a draft yet.
No-one can be sure what is actually going to be in the final constitution, or which parts members may be able to opt out of, as the nations themselves haven't agreed a draft yet.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
The DRAFT Constitution is published here.
But I haven't had time to read much of it !
http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/Treaty/cv00850.en03.pdf
But I haven't had time to read much of it !
http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/Treaty/cv00850.en03.pdf
Highfields Seagull
Well-known member
The draft constitution that HAS NOT BEEN AGREED as countries cannot yet agree what should and shouldn't be in it. It may not get agreed this time round either.
The way I see it, Chirac wants it to fail leaving him with an excuse to blame the British, and Blair wants it to fail leaving him with an excuse to blame the French.
The way I see it, Chirac wants it to fail leaving him with an excuse to blame the British, and Blair wants it to fail leaving him with an excuse to blame the French.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
I think Article 28 and Article 41 are pertinent.
It makes absolutely NO-MENTION that any member state has to change it's existing legal system, it merely re-iterates the cases where Member States Courts may apply to the European Court for further ruling and guidance relating to EU law.
It DOES say, & I quote :
" Member States shall provide rights of appeal sufficient to ensure effective legal protection in the field of Union law. "
" The Court of Justice shall :
Rule on actions brought by a member state, an institution or a natural or legal person in accordance with the provisions of part III.
Give preliminary rulings, at the request of member state courts,, on the interpretation of Union law or the validity of acts adopted by the instituitons.
Rule on the other cases provided for in the Constitution. "
I still haven't got very far into it though, that's only on page 27. Still another 238 to go.
It makes absolutely NO-MENTION that any member state has to change it's existing legal system, it merely re-iterates the cases where Member States Courts may apply to the European Court for further ruling and guidance relating to EU law.
It DOES say, & I quote :
" Member States shall provide rights of appeal sufficient to ensure effective legal protection in the field of Union law. "
" The Court of Justice shall :
Rule on actions brought by a member state, an institution or a natural or legal person in accordance with the provisions of part III.
Give preliminary rulings, at the request of member state courts,, on the interpretation of Union law or the validity of acts adopted by the instituitons.
Rule on the other cases provided for in the Constitution. "
I still haven't got very far into it though, that's only on page 27. Still another 238 to go.
Mr C said:
House price rises cannot be linked to immigration. The reasons are more along the following lines:
1. Greedy people selling their houses for too much money.
2. Social trends such as divorced people wanting (understandably!) their own place after splitting up and a higher standard of living leading to more individuals setting up home by themselves.
3. The trend in this country (compared to many other countries) of having to own your own property rather than renting meaning more demand.
UKIP blame immigrants - but forget that a major source of this country's economic strength is our ability to attract people of skills from all over the world to work in the UK, which leads to greater economic activity, more jobs, etc.
And their American hireling waws only on Question time 'cos he is being paid a massive sum of money to represent them - if Labour hired him he would be arguing the pro-Europe corner just as persuasively.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
Here's an interesting one.
Article 46, para 4.
" No less than One Million citizens coming from a significant number of Member States may invite the comission to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Constitution. A European law shall determine the provisions for the specific proceedures and conditions required for such a Citizens initiative. "
I guess we've still got a way to go on the Falmer Petition to hit One Million signatures !
Article 46, para 4.
" No less than One Million citizens coming from a significant number of Member States may invite the comission to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Constitution. A European law shall determine the provisions for the specific proceedures and conditions required for such a Citizens initiative. "
I guess we've still got a way to go on the Falmer Petition to hit One Million signatures !
34064 Fighter Command
New member
The Citizens Charter, Article II-19 : Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition.
" Collective expulsions are prohibited.
No-one may be removed, expelled or extradited to a state where there is serious risk that he or she would be subject to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. "
Article II-21 : Non-discrimination.
" Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
Within the scope of application of the Constitution and without prejudice to any of it's specific provisions, any discriminations on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited ".
I like the ' genetic features ' bit, reminds me of the ' big nose, who are you calling big nose ' bit in ' Life of Brian '.
BTW : Edited to correct typo.
" Collective expulsions are prohibited.
No-one may be removed, expelled or extradited to a state where there is serious risk that he or she would be subject to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. "
Article II-21 : Non-discrimination.
" Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
Within the scope of application of the Constitution and without prejudice to any of it's specific provisions, any discriminations on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited ".
I like the ' genetic features ' bit, reminds me of the ' big nose, who are you calling big nose ' bit in ' Life of Brian '.
BTW : Edited to correct typo.
Last edited:
Dandyman
In London village.
Westdene Seagull said:
You do not have to do that in France. The difference is that we have an adverserial system and they have a inquisitorial (sp.?) one.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
Article II-34 Social security and social assistance.
" The union recognises and respects the entitlement to social security benefits and social services providing protection in cases such as maternity, illness, industrial accidents, dependancy or old age, and in the case of loss of employment, in accordance with the rules laid down by Union law and national laws and practices.
Everyone residing and moving legally within the European Union is entitled to social security benefits and social advantages in accordance with Union law and national laws and practices.
In order to combat social exclusion and poverty, the Union recognises and respects the right to social and housing assistance so as to ensure a decent existance for all who lack sufficient resources, in accordance with the rules laid down by Union law and national laws and practices ".
Article II-35 ; Health Care.
Everyone has the right of access to preventitive health care and the right to benefit from medical treatment under the conditions established by national laws and practices. A high level of human health protection shall be ensured in the definition and implementation of all Union policies and activities. "
It's abit of a pain having to type this all in by hand, hope my boss doesn't want me to do any work !
" The union recognises and respects the entitlement to social security benefits and social services providing protection in cases such as maternity, illness, industrial accidents, dependancy or old age, and in the case of loss of employment, in accordance with the rules laid down by Union law and national laws and practices.
Everyone residing and moving legally within the European Union is entitled to social security benefits and social advantages in accordance with Union law and national laws and practices.
In order to combat social exclusion and poverty, the Union recognises and respects the right to social and housing assistance so as to ensure a decent existance for all who lack sufficient resources, in accordance with the rules laid down by Union law and national laws and practices ".
Article II-35 ; Health Care.
Everyone has the right of access to preventitive health care and the right to benefit from medical treatment under the conditions established by national laws and practices. A high level of human health protection shall be ensured in the definition and implementation of all Union policies and activities. "
It's abit of a pain having to type this all in by hand, hope my boss doesn't want me to do any work !
34064 Fighter Command
New member
Article II-45 Freedom of Movement and residence.
" Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.
Freedom of Movement and residence may be granted, in accordance with the Constitution, to nationals of third countries legally resident in the territory of a Member State. "
" Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.
Freedom of Movement and residence may be granted, in accordance with the Constitution, to nationals of third countries legally resident in the territory of a Member State. "
pasty
A different kind of pasty
Gully said:
Very good point, and one that housing authorities tend to ignore. When my mother died, my father was left living on his own in a three bedroom, end of terrace council house with a large back garden.
He contacted the local authority and said it was silly him living there, and if they could move him to a 2 bedroom flat or suchlike, he would happily move, so a family home would be made available. They refused, saying they would only move him to a one bedroom property, which he didn't want because his grandchildren often stayed over. They still wouldn't move him, so he stayed where he was.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
Title VI Justice :
Article II-47 Right to an effective remedy and to a fair trial.
" Everyone whose rights and freedoms guarenteed by the law of the Union are violated has the right to an effective remedy before a tribunal in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Article.
Everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independant impartial tribunal previously established by law. Everyone shall have the possibility of being advised, defended and represented.
Legal aid shall be made availabe to those who lack sufficient resources insofar as such aid is necessary to ensure effective access to justice. "
Article II-48 Presumption of innocence and right to defence.
" Everyone who has been charged shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to the law.
Respect for the rights of the defence of anyone who has been charged shall be guarenteed. "
Article II-49 Principals of legality and proportionality of criminal offences and penalties.
" No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national law or international law at the time when it was comitted. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than that which was applicable at the time the criminal offence was comitted. If, subsequent to the comission of a criminal offence, the law provides for a lighter penalty, that penalty shall be applicable.
This article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was comitted, was criminal according to the general principals recognised by the community of nations.
The severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence. "
Article II-50 Right not to be tried or punished twice in criminal proceedings for the same criminal offence.
" No-one shall be liable to trial or punished again in criminal proceedings for an offence which he or she has already been finally acquitted or convicted within the Union in accordance with the law. "
Excuse my atrocious spelling.
Article II-47 Right to an effective remedy and to a fair trial.
" Everyone whose rights and freedoms guarenteed by the law of the Union are violated has the right to an effective remedy before a tribunal in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Article.
Everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independant impartial tribunal previously established by law. Everyone shall have the possibility of being advised, defended and represented.
Legal aid shall be made availabe to those who lack sufficient resources insofar as such aid is necessary to ensure effective access to justice. "
Article II-48 Presumption of innocence and right to defence.
" Everyone who has been charged shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to the law.
Respect for the rights of the defence of anyone who has been charged shall be guarenteed. "
Article II-49 Principals of legality and proportionality of criminal offences and penalties.
" No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national law or international law at the time when it was comitted. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than that which was applicable at the time the criminal offence was comitted. If, subsequent to the comission of a criminal offence, the law provides for a lighter penalty, that penalty shall be applicable.
This article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was comitted, was criminal according to the general principals recognised by the community of nations.
The severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence. "
Article II-50 Right not to be tried or punished twice in criminal proceedings for the same criminal offence.
" No-one shall be liable to trial or punished again in criminal proceedings for an offence which he or she has already been finally acquitted or convicted within the Union in accordance with the law. "
Excuse my atrocious spelling.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
Remember UKIP want this constitution and charter ripped up !
Deportivo Seagull
I should coco
UKIP want out of the EEC. bad bad idea .. why ... simple, EEC is a trading block with agreements with nearly every other trading block in the world. These trading blocks would rather you buy from another member at a higher price and then refund you the difference thereby squeezing out all the non members. Products that cannot be made in you trading block or are just to bloody cheap elsewhere are allowed in. We cannot compete with the far east and so we can't sell goods on matter of cost. There is very little that we produce that no-one else is capable of making so we would be stuffed there. Our biggest export would be farm goods, unfortunately no-one would by them. We could ofcourse join another trading block ..... North American block anyone ...
We would be 'free' ... but broke ..
The first responsibility is not immigrants .. its those bastards who haven't done a days honest labour but can trace back there families in England for 1000 years that need sorting. Personally I reckon we should chuck out the shirkers and import the workers ....
We would be 'free' ... but broke ..
The first responsibility is not immigrants .. its those bastards who haven't done a days honest labour but can trace back there families in England for 1000 years that need sorting. Personally I reckon we should chuck out the shirkers and import the workers ....
Highfields Seagull
Well-known member
Good work 34604. So far I've not seen anything that I disagree with.
34064 Fighter Command
New member
I've been shirking an awful lot of work whilst typing this, I'm afraid I have to get back to doing some now.
kalinski
Well-known member
for reference:
"...a tide of humanity that sees Britain as the land of milk and honey."
Asylum seekers are not allowed to claim mainstream welfare benefits. If they are destitute, the only option for some is to apply for support with the National Asylum Support Service (NASS), the Government department responsible for supporting destitute asylum applicants. NASS support is very basic indeed. A single adult has to survive on £37.77 a week - 30% below the poverty line.
"Bogus asylum seekers are draining millions from the NHS"
This idea ignores the enormous contribution that asylum seekers, refugees and other immigrants make to the economic and cultural life of the UK. Refugees bring with them a wealth of skills and experience - even the Home Office has recognised this and made a commitment, though its Integration Unit, to put such skills to good use. The NHS relies heavily on foreign labour - according to the Greater London Authority, 23% of doctors and 47% of nurses working within the NHS were born outside the UK.
According to a recent Home Office study carried out last year, migrants, including asylum seekers and refugees - are far from being a burden on UK tax payers. On the contrary, in 1999-2000, they made a net fiscal contribution of approximately £2.5 billion, worth 1p on income tax.
Research carried out by Personnel Today in November 2001, found that 9 out of 10 employers want to take on refugees to meet skills' shortages, but do not due to ignorance of the law and confusing Home Office paperwork.
I could go on for the ignorant but frankly it would take some reading, which seems to be a skill lacking from UKip and BMP supporters
"...a tide of humanity that sees Britain as the land of milk and honey."
Asylum seekers are not allowed to claim mainstream welfare benefits. If they are destitute, the only option for some is to apply for support with the National Asylum Support Service (NASS), the Government department responsible for supporting destitute asylum applicants. NASS support is very basic indeed. A single adult has to survive on £37.77 a week - 30% below the poverty line.
"Bogus asylum seekers are draining millions from the NHS"
This idea ignores the enormous contribution that asylum seekers, refugees and other immigrants make to the economic and cultural life of the UK. Refugees bring with them a wealth of skills and experience - even the Home Office has recognised this and made a commitment, though its Integration Unit, to put such skills to good use. The NHS relies heavily on foreign labour - according to the Greater London Authority, 23% of doctors and 47% of nurses working within the NHS were born outside the UK.
According to a recent Home Office study carried out last year, migrants, including asylum seekers and refugees - are far from being a burden on UK tax payers. On the contrary, in 1999-2000, they made a net fiscal contribution of approximately £2.5 billion, worth 1p on income tax.
Research carried out by Personnel Today in November 2001, found that 9 out of 10 employers want to take on refugees to meet skills' shortages, but do not due to ignorance of the law and confusing Home Office paperwork.
I could go on for the ignorant but frankly it would take some reading, which seems to be a skill lacking from UKip and BMP supporters