[Politics] Trump under fire.

[Bodian]

Without wanting to diminish the seriousness of this, and whatever our views on the politics and personnel - I think we have to admit that this is some photo. I can see this being regularly shown for decades to come.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Exactly. How did a roof (or access to the roof) go unsecured. A roof that was 150m away and with direct line of sight of the podium. It's unbelievable.

How did that not get secured?

The shooter was on the downslope of a pitched roof so would have been unsighted to the counter-sniper team on the barn behind the podium.

How did the secret service allow 'dead ground', unsighted to them, not have cover from another position?

The shooter would have then be sighted, possibly at the last moment, to the counter-sniper team. The sniper team were looking at that area so how did he manage to fire three shots?

The people were telling police and secret service there was a shooter on the roof. Why was trump not removed from the podium or agents immediately placed on stage.

It is a complete failure of sound security planning and a failure of implementation of standard protection procedures and incident response.

Despite their pride in their efficiency, I'm not so sure that the US secret service (SS) is all that great at being proactive. Free Speech laws mean it is probably a constitutional violation to target self-declared enemies of other sections of US society. Only when they declare themselves as enemies of the state would the SS act. And nobody would be that silly would they?

Indeed, with the gun laws as they are it isn't illegal to form an armed militia in many states. In the UK such sorts would find themselves banged up in Belmarsh the minute our SS spotted their Amazon order for a box of five dozen Glock G-17s.

Regarding your questions, I wonder if the police were told to expect triumphant armed Trump supporters at the gig, and assumed it was one of his, intent on giving the great man a rooftop salute? No more incredible a solution than the incredible events themselves.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

`If you go back to the BBC interview with a bloke who was there, the shooter wasn't just there waiting to shoot, it seems he clambered onto the roof during the speech.

In full view of everyone. Presumably the SS expect this sort of 'exuberance' at a Trump gig. Assassin hiding in plain sight.

 

[pasty]

He's easily that stupid. That's not to say I think this was staged, I doubt it was. But not because Trump isn't stupid enough. He is extremely stupid.

Absolutely this. I’m not for one moment suggesting it was staged, but if it was, it wouldn’t surprise me one iota.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Without wanting to diminish the seriousness of this, and whatever our views on the politics and personnel - I think we have to admit that this is some photo. I can see this being regularly shown for decades to come.

View attachment 185612

The G man on the right appears to share Heurzeler's 'barber'.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Probably been said on here already but you gotta love the yanks shouting USA USA 30 seconds after a load of bullets have reigned into them.i'd still be on the deck

It's mental that no one was running for their lives

 

[nicko31]

This has pretty much won him the election, right?

I remember when they tried to murder that fash in Brazil it didn’t end well.

Trump stoked all this and will now exploit it. Need to start planning for a world when we can no longer rely on the USA. Cue Blenheim Palace

 

[chickens]

I don’t think you can say “regardless of how divisive Trump’s own rhetoric is” because his ideas and words are powerful…you only need to think back to the Capitol Hill riots to realize this.

Trump’s words undoubtedly encouraged participation, but every individual who took part in that protest and the riots took that decision individually.

Trump’s words were heard by millions and amplified by press reports and social media. There are those who chose to participate in the manner of a peaceful protest, and there are those who participated seeking violence in a spirit of aggression against their own state.

It’s really important not to conflate those who attended in a spirit of peaceful protest, believing that a wrong had been committed, with those who committed acts of violence and criminal damage. Not everyone there committed criminal acts.

You have to stand up for the right to protest, even when you fundamentally disagree with the POV of those doing the protesting.

You and I would be the first to complain if a protest for a cause we believed in had a couple of hundred dickheads smashing windows and fighting the police, as it would pull focus from the legitimacy of the protest, and instead the reporting would all be about the crowd control.

It was disappointing at how little Trump did to cool things at Capitol Hill, he seemed to me to revel in the outright show of “strength”, but Americans have seen that as well as we did and still seem to want to vote for him.

Do I think that’s a sane or sensible choice? No. However it is still a choice. Trump is undoubtedly aided by the fact that the alternative candidate appears to be in the throes of a marked physical and cognitive decline.

If I were an American citizen I would be looking for a candidate outside of both major parties. I’m not, and Americans have to sort their own mess out. I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be to stay that angry for that much of the time. America pretty much owns us, we are effectively renting our own country back from them, so I hope for an outbreak of cordiality, goodwill and sanity soon, but I’m not holding my breath.

TLDR - f***ing hell

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I remember when they tried to murder that fash in Brazil it didn’t end well.

Trump stoked all this and will now exploit it. Need to start planning for a world when we can no longer rely on the USA. Cue Blenheim Palace

I fully expect we have (or hope we have) been planning as this merely adds to the whole sorry situation. With Biden's faltering inadequacies, Trump was already pretty much shoe-horned in as President IMO, however this will give Trump's appeal a wider boost. His reaction was brilliant politicking, much as I'd expect the same kind of response from Boris but no so much from Starmer. The world needs a strong America at this time, at least the West does, and Putin for one will be relishing this failed attempt.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Absolutely this. I’m not for one moment suggesting it was staged, but if it was, it wouldn’t surprise me one iota.

Presumably you have issues with Kennedy's assassination and the moon landings as well

FFS.

 

[the larks]

It's mental that no one was running for their lives

And getting their phones out to take pictures. Having just watched the moment the agents try and get Trump of the stage, I'm amazed they allowed him to stop, raise his fist, shout, having broken through their protective shield. If the gunman was still active they would have had a good target to aim at.

 

[drew]

Without wanting to diminish the seriousness of this, and whatever our views on the politics and personnel - I think we have to admit that this is some photo. I can see this being regularly shown for decades to come.

View attachment 185612

Judging by his self proclaimed reputation, I'm surprised the first words out of his mouth weren't 'whilst you're down there love!'

 

[Wrong-Direction]

If you're going to get shot anywhere then the top of the ear is perfect place. I'd like to see the wound. Very suspicious and could've easily cut his ear with a razor when he hit the deck

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Trump’s words undoubtedly encouraged participation, but every individual who took part in that protest and the riots took that decision individually.

Trump’s words were heard by millions and amplified by press reports and social media. There are those who chose to participate in the manner of a peaceful protest, and there are those who participated seeking violence in a spirit of aggression against their own state.

It’s really important not to conflate those who attended in a spirit of peaceful protest, believing that a wrong had been committed, with those who committed acts of violence and criminal damage. Not everyone there committed criminal acts.

You have to stand up for the right to protest, even when you fundamentally disagree with the POV of those doing the protesting.

You and I would be the first to complain if a protest for a cause we believed in had a couple of hundred dickheads smashing windows and fighting the police, as it would pull focus from the legitimacy of the protest, and instead the reporting would all be about the crowd control.

It was disappointing at how little Trump did to cool things at Capitol Hill, he seemed to me to revel in the outright show of “strength”, but Americans have seen that as well as we did and still seem to want to vote for him.

Do I think that’s a sane or sensible choice? No. However it is still a choice. Trump is undoubtedly aided by the fact that the alternative candidate appears to be in the throes of a marked physical and cognitive decline.

If I were an American citizen I would be looking for a candidate outside of both major parties. I’m not, and Americans have to sort their own mess out. I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be to stay that angry for that much of the time. America pretty much owns us, we are effectively renting our own country back from them, so I hope for an outbreak of cordiality, goodwill and sanity soon, but I’m not holding my breath.

TLDR - f***ing hell

I understand this. But some people are less responsible for their actions than others and words can be powerful. Politics is as much about words as it is actions.

 

[Zeberdi]

It’s not just America that desperately needs some de-escalation at the moment.

Seemingly, the usual protagonists have seamlessly moved from the UK election threads, to the Labour 100 Days in Power thread and now to this thread.

It would be great if those intent on lobbing thinly-veiled insults, sneers and smears at other members heed @Bozza ‘s request to be a little kinder and just dial it back a bit please.

Agreed but not sure how your ‘thinly veiled’ attack applies to me - where have I insulted, sneered and smeared fellow NSCers for their political views?

I am a Labour supporter, I make no excuses for that. I have never personally attacked other NSC members for being Reform or Conservative supporters. If you think my general comments about Farage and his rascist supporters are misguided or insulting, take a look at some of the tweets that have been posted on Reform’s website in response to him appointing a Muslim Chairman. Trump and Farage are very similar and attract a similar demographic support base.

Trump’s political rhetoric appeals to violent extremists and Farage‘s rethoric on immigration appeals to rascists. Islamophobia and other forms of rascism. That is a fact not a political opinion on my part.

I also have been firmly against Trump running for a second term for very good reasons based on factual circumstances and his previous history in the White House. I make no excises for that either.

It wasn’t me that started accusing the ‘leftists’ on NSC for supporting attempted assassinations and violence or accusing other NSCers of saying it was ‘poetic justice’ - I said until the FBI release details, blaming left wing extremists is just biased speculation. It certainly wasn’t me attacking anyone on the Labour 100 days thread for their political views either.

As I said, criticising Trump’s politics and his violent rhetoric is perfectly compatible with not condoning him or any other political leader being assassinated.


EDIT - tilting my lance at windmills, apologies to @Bry Nylon

 

[Jackthelad]

Quite and it was wishful thinking on my part that said that.

The reaction at the Convention will be very much this

Quite and it was wishful thinking on my part that said that.

The reaction at the Convention will be very much this

They make it difficult sometimes not to be a tin foil hat wearer. That photo reminds me of iconic 1945 photograph of six Marines raising a U.S. flag atop Mount Suribachi. It just looks so scripted. I’m not saying it it by the way! But that is one powerful photo

 

[TomandJerry]

The man of the people already wading in

 

[maltaseagull]

Without wanting to diminish the seriousness of this, and whatever our views on the politics and personnel - I think we have to admit that this is some photo. I can see this being regularly shown for decades to come.

View attachment 185612

That photo wins him the election.

 

[Insel affe]

If you're going to get shot anywhere then the top of the ear is perfect place. I'd like to see the wound. Very suspicious and could've easily cut his ear with a razor when he hit the deck

And we’re off…..

 

[Bry Nylon]

Agreed but not sure how your ‘thinly veiled’ attack applies to me

It doesn’t apply to you. I was using your comment about de-escalation to illustrate my comments.