[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[A1X]

Boris has sent all unredacted WhatsApps to the inquiry.

Does this include his pre-May 2021 ones or is he still claiming he's lost them?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Boris has sent all unredacted WhatsApps to the inquiry.

All the ones he wants to send. Anything prior to 2021 is at the bottom of the Thames or on a burner phone as Dominic Cummings described it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

For one, I don't defend the government's every action; for another, if I did, it's only to provide counterpoint to the majority on here who criticise the government's every action. When someone broadly conservative posts on a board which is strongly left wing, they're bound to come across as apparently supportive of the current government, even though I actually think they're incompetent, useless, and unconservative. (Especially economically.) (Though I do think the civil service is sabotaging their intentions to some extent. As witnessed by the absurd complaints from the civil service unions that civil servants might be obliged to act against their consciences.)

I criticise Starmer's EU views which have changed since he took over as Labour leader. I criticise Ed Davey for being weak and wishy washy.

I criticise this government's every action because their every action is worthy of criticism. If you watched QT last night, you will find Chris Patten, ex Conservative Cabinet minister, criticising the government vehemently. Lord Heseltine likewise. There is plenty to criticise every day. At 74 years old, I have been very Centrist, voting for Conservative, Labour and LibDem according to their manifestos, but this lot have gone far far beyond the pale. I don't see how anybody can stand up for them.

Please do not fall into the trap of blaming civil servants who actually have to work out government policies, and qualified to know when international law is being broken.
Yes, the civil service have unions, but that is a safety net for them or else they could be prosecuted for 'following orders'. Unions provide legal advice.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Boris Johnson will provide unredacted WhatsApps to the Covid 19 Inquiry directly, he said in a letter to to the chairwoman on Friday.

“The government yesterday decided to take legal action. It was not my decision to do so,” wrote Johnson. “While I understand the government’s position, I am not willing to let my material become a test case for others when I am perfectly content for the inquiry to see it.”

Johnson said he no longer has physical access to his notebooks which were removed from his office by the Cabinet Office, and said he has requested for them to be shared with the Inquiry directly.

The letter. Note how he says, he would like to do the same with any material that may be on an old phone etc etc (paragraph 6)

 

[beorhthelm]

Why would Lady Hallett make that public? She needs the messages in order to conduct a thorough enquiry -- which is what the remit is, set up by the government, who also appointed her -- which might establish some trust in the process. You don't seem to care about that.
I stand by my previous comment about you.

while its some whataboutery, there's a point there. unless the Whatapp chats are editted, they'll include anything about everything. if they are editted, they might be editing out bits relevant to Covid. might be why Cabinet Offic is reluctant. it's a bit all or nothing, then the inquiry has a job of filtering the babble.

 

[dsr-burnley]

To be fair, it's not exactly difficult to criticise the government's every action!

And I'm not sure I'd characterise this board as "strongly left wing".....I guess we're mainly a relatively tolerant, liberal, dare I say - progressive - bunch. I think some of the push-back against those with Tory views is that the Conservative Party has been taken over by a rather nasty, pretty dangerous bunch of self-seekers who plainly couldn't give a toss about the country, still less those in so-called Red Wall seats who voted them in last time.

The attitudes towards people who support Brexit wasn't and isn't particularly tolerant. Yes, tolerant in the sense that you allow people to talk about it and to disagree, but not tolerant in the sense of being polite and respecting their opinion.

This is not directed at you personally, it's a comment on the general board ethos.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Why would Lady Hallett make that public? She needs the messages in order to conduct a thorough enquiry -- which is what the remit is, set up by the government, who also appointed her -- which might establish some trust in the process. You don't seem to care about that.
I stand by my previous comment about you.

I don't expect that Lady Hallett will make anything irrelevant, public. But I don't think she will be the only reader of those messages. Can there be a guarantee of no leaks from anyone on the enquiry?

 

[A1X]

At the end of the day, Boris is purely in this for himself.

I reckon if he was offered immunity from prosecution and a knighthood he'd sing like a canary about everything and everyone without a moment's hesitation, and sign a written statement to the same.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Given that Jeremy Corbyn didn't support reforming the voting system, I'm not sure why you're conflating his intellectual immaturity with the position that any party winning a majority of the seats with just 43% of the vote is not representative.

A fact + a lie + a ludicrous speculation = low comedy?

On reflection the last time I was hauled up on a disciplinary for making facetious comments that were taken the wrong way by a young person, when asked why I did it and replied 'it was a joke', I had a red faced octogenarian screaming "well its NOT FUNNY" in my face, and it was all I could do to not break down and giggle. It's too early in the day for me to start giggling.

So I'll get my donkey jacket.....

 

[Peteinblack]

The attitudes towards people who support Brexit wasn't and isn't particularly tolerant. Yes, tolerant in the sense that you allow people to talk about it and to disagree, but not tolerant in the sense of being polite and respecting their opinion.

This is not directed at you personally, it's a comment on the general board ethos.

Many pro-Remain MPs and other prominent public supporters, along with ordinary supporters on social media (including myself), have been subject to regular death threats and threats of violence or arson, some female 'Remain' Conservative MPs had to seek police protection or injunctions against aggressive Brexit supporters threatening them in public, and the Labour MP, Jo Cox, was murdered by a Right-wing racist thug.

Please tell me roughly how many Brexit supporters have been assassinated, suffered death threats, assaulted or otherwise threatened by aggressive or violent Remain supporters.

Your engaging in the usual Right-wing tactic of implying that "both sides area as bad as each other", when it is clear that since 2016, Brexit supporters have been the overwhelming perpetrators of bullying, intimidation, and threats against Remainers.

That is one of the reasons I hate Brexit - not just the policy itself, but because so many Brexit supporters are plain nasty, thuggish, people - the 'school of hard knocks, university of life, wear your poppy with pride' brigade. I've been 'engaging' with them on social media since 2016, and they cannot (or will not) discuss issues in an intelligent or grown-up manner, but - in block capital letters - hurl abuse, insults, and threats, with 100s of their mates joining in, like vicious animals hunting in packs. They also send vile and threatening messages and threats via Messenger; - "We know where you and your wife live, c***" being a regular one.

If you were to try discussing Brexit with them face-to-face in a pub, many Brexiters would happily punch you in the face to silence you. But, yeah "Remain supporters are as bad"

 

[Randy McNob]

To rig the system so the tories can't win?

I'd be pleased by the outcome, but how can this be justified? It makes us just as bad as them surely?

For me I would rather have a party that can win the arguments. As a Labour member I am still acutely aware that we are still not fully recovered from the Militant take over and the Corbyn omnishambles.

We have just about overcome the stigma of being an anti-Semitic party with mad ideas that will tank the economy and flood the country with Spanish Waiters from the so-called EU, but we now have to deal with the accusations from Rees Mogg and his toady acolytes (some of whom post on NSC, and even on this thread) that Labour have no answers, no policies and no leadership.

And I can assure you that if by some miracle Labour do win the next GE the very last thing they will want to do is change the electoral system so they can never form a government again. Going cap in hand to the flibbertigibbet liberals or stark staring bonkers and useless greens is not my idea of governance.

Corbyn who was voted leader with the largest member mandate ever and was within 17k votes of government in 2017. Right now we have a PM who the Tory party members didn't even want.

It's not about rigging elections, the point I was making was the electorate as a whole is left of centre but the voting system delivers a right wing government

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

A fact + a lie + a ludicrous speculation = low comedy?

On reflection the last time I was hauled up on a disciplinary for making facetious comments that were taken the wrong way by a young person, when asked why I did it and replied 'it was a joke', I had a red faced octogenarian screaming "well its NOT FUNNY" in my face, and it was all I could do to not break down and giggle. It's too early in the day for me to start giggling.

So I'll get my donkey jacket.....

It's quite possible to make a serious point through low comedy.
Anyway, I've derailed enough threads with arguments about the voting system, so I'll leave it there.
Don't let the octogarians stop you making facetious comments at young people. It's the only way they'll learn.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

In the USA a lot of Democrats said they could not bring themselves to vote for Hillary and we all know what happened. They didn't make the same mistake twice.

I'm not sure we've learned that lesson yet in the UK

 

[Screaming J]

Yes, but Jeremy Corbyn was the most popular leader ever. So a young person told me. And labour won all the arguments. That's why labour got the majority of the votes. Don't you see?

And now they are just tory lite.

That's why we need to get rid of first past the post, and vote for a coalition between the greens, liberals and a left wing labour party led by someone like Becca Wrong-Bailey.

Shurely Wrong-Daily ??

 

[sparkie]

Starmer has lost my vote with his repeated support of an adamantite-hard Brexit outside the Single Market. That will not be in my name and my vote won't be counted as "in support of it". So my vote wll be a Lib Dem vote or a spoiler at the next election to be decided nearer the time.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

while its some whataboutery, there's a point there. unless the Whatapp chats are editted, they'll include anything about everything. if they are editted, they might be editing out bits relevant to Covid. might be why Cabinet Offic is reluctant. it's a bit all or nothing, then the inquiry has a job of filtering the babble.

That's exactly what enquiries do. Who remembers the silly nonsense of increased traffic to the Amex enlarging the risk of vehicle bat collisions?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Starmer has lost my vote with his repeated support of an adamantite-hard Brexit outside the Single Market. That will not be in my name and my vote won't be counted as "in support of it". So my vote wll be a Lib Dem vote or a spoiler at the next election.

It's a shame because Peter Kyle is a good MP.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Starmer has lost my vote with his repeated support of an adamantite-hard Brexit outside the Single Market. That will not be in my name and my vote won't be counted as "in support of it". So my vote wll be a Lib Dem vote or a spoiler at the next election to be decided nearer the time.

Do you really think that voting liberal will take us back into the EU? Think again. I am a strong 'remainer' but even I consider that this bird has flown, at least for the next several years. Probably more than 10. Any whisper of 'betraying' the Brexit vote will result in a tory government. Like it or not.

 

[sparkie]

It's a shame because Peter Kyle is a good MP.

It is a shame. A great shame. But I won't be officially counted as a supporter of a titanium-hard Brexit outside the Single Market.

To be fair, we don't have the exact wording of the manifesto yet - so things can in theory change.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It is a shame. A great shame. But I won't be officially counted as a supporter of a titanium-hard Brexit outside the Single Market.

To be fair, we don't have the exact wording of the manifesto yet - so things can in theory change.

I suspect there may be some pressure at the Labour Party conference in September.