[Politics] Tories sneaking through £6000 death tax

[studio150]

When is a tax not a tax?

Answer - When the Tories call it fee to avoid full debate and voting in Parliament

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6680473/Fury-sneaky-6-000-death-tax-set-hit-300-000-families.html

Given rising house prices many will be caught by the higher costs, which are payable up front before any funds are accessed.

And to think Parliament sloped off early this week due to the lack of business laid down by the Government.

 

[chimneys]

When is a tax not a tax?

Answer - When the Tories call it fee to avoid full debate and voting in Parliament

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6680473/Fury-sneaky-6-000-death-tax-set-hit-300-000-families.html

Given rising house prices many will be caught by the higher costs, which are payable up front before any funds are accessed.

And to think Parliament sloped off early this week due to the lack of business laid down by the Government.

Left wing news from the Daily Mail

Ever thought of being a red top journalist? In case the rest of you also only read the headline it’s £6k only if your estate is over £2m. Less than £500k is £750. Move on, really not much to see here!!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Left wing news from the Daily Mail��

Ever thought of being a red top journalist? In case the rest of you also only read the headline it’s £6k only if your estate is over £2m. Less than £500k is £750. Move on, really not much to see here!!

Inheritance, though, is a talisman of the middle class. Destroy that and the world ends. Fact. Vote....er....which nutters do the Fail support these days? UKIP? Exegesis? Taliban?

 

[Eeyore]

Don't see an issue. Estates worth less than £50k are exempt whereas it was £5k before.

An estate with net worth over £500k owes £2.5k now. Very few folk who don't stand to gain a lot will suffer.

As for fronting costs, probate, upon application, normally only takes a couple of weeks to come through these days- although releasing accounts to executors can be a pain. I would argue that executors should be invoiced rather than forced to pay up front.

The issue is the principle. Not many people actually have to pay inheritance tax and if they do they are inheriting a lot. There is something uncomfortable about taxing death though.

That said, moaning about a £6k bill on an estate worth millions

I suggest that this is more an article for FT readers...

It should be noted that the high value of estates is often down to an inflated property market and not capital. Perhaps this tax could go toward social housing...

 

[beorhthelm]

im confused, Conservatives normally wanting to abolish inheritance tax, increase charges for probate? not going to raise much worth the trouble either.

Don't see an issue. Estates worth less than £50k are exempt whereas it was £5k before.

ah... important detail overlooked. so actually this might be revenue neutral, the rises to larger estates offset the rise in exemptions?

 

[Eeyore]

im confused, Conservatives normally wanting to abolish inheritance tax, increase charges for probate? not going to raise much worth the trouble either.




ah... important detail overlooked. so actually this might be revenue neutral, the rises to larger estates offset the rise in exemptions?

Strangely, it reads more like a Corbyn policy than a Tory one. No wonder the Mail is upset.

 

[The Clamp]

Left wing news from the Daily Mail��

Ever thought of being a red top journalist? In case the rest of you also only read the headline it’s £6k only if your estate is over £2m. Less than £500k is £750. Move on, really not much to see here!!

The majority of people will have an estate worth less than £500k. A lot will be worth way, way less than that.
And that my trusting friend, is how the Tory’s tax the poor and less well off. Take a smaller amount off a larger amount of people. Sneaky, snidey, cynical. The Tories.

 

[beorhthelm]

The majority of people will have an estate worth less than £500k. A lot will be worth way, way less than that.
And that my trusting friend, is how the Tory’s tax the poor and less well off. Take a smaller amount off a larger amount of people. Sneaky, snidey, cynical. The Tories.

? the tax here is progressive, increasing for the larger estates?? this is not traditional right wing economics.

the whole area of inheritance and probate is odd, affecting such a small porportion of the population , raises a relativly small amount, but takes a monumental amount of effort to go through. seems Liberals have a sensible policy, tax people on financial gifts at income tax rate. simple.

 

[pastafarian]

The majority of people will have an estate worth less than £500k. A lot will be worth way, way less than that.
And that my trusting friend, is how the Tory’s tax the poor and less well off. Take a smaller amount off a larger amount of people. Sneaky, snidey, cynical. The Tories.

Bit Daily Mailish this “outrage”

The fees are hardly exorbitant.
Under £50000 now exempt when before it was under £5000
£50001-£300000 an increase of £35 to £250
£300001-£500000 now £750



And you can access “cash” assets like bank and savings accounts of the estate to pay the upfront cost.
HMRC have said the average estate is around 25% cash.

The legislation was put forward on the 5th Nov in the Commoms
It has gone back and forth between the lords and commons through various procedures and scrutiny a further 7 times
https://beta.parliament.uk/work-packages/Oj1sWgBg
before the final discussion in the commons Dec 7 with the apparent "secretive" delegated legislation committee
Various MPs were in attendance.
Here is the “secret” Hansard entry

"more than half of estates will pay nothing, because they are either exempt or do not require a grant of probate"
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...2b/DraftNon-ContentiousProbate(Fees)Order2018

If some people like Cable want to get their knickers in a twist now after all that procedure, the first obvious question is what the hell have they being doing all this time? They could have raised an objection for full parliamentary debate ages ago.

 

[The Clamp]

? the tax here is progressive, increasing for the larger estates?? this is not traditional right wing economics.

the whole area of inheritance and probate is odd, affecting such a small porportion of the population , raises a relativly small amount, but takes a monumental amount of effort to go through. seems Liberals have a sensible policy, tax people on financial gifts at income tax rate. simple.

Yes, I think I have misunderstood the history of this tax, despite having dealt with it thrice.
I concede I have got it wrong in this particular case.

 

[Eeyore]

Bit Daily Mailish this “outrage”

The fees are hardly exorbitant.
Under £50000 now exempt when before it was under £5000
£50001-£300000 an increase of £35 to £250
£300001-£500000 now £750

View attachment 104464

And you can access “cash” assets like bank and savings accounts of the estate to pay the upfront cost.
HMRC have said the average estate is around 25% cash.

The legislation was put forward on the 5th Nov in the Commoms
It has gone back and forth between the lords and commons through various procedures and scrutiny a further 7 times
https://beta.parliament.uk/work-packages/Oj1sWgBg
before the final discussion in the commons Dec 7 with the apparent "secretive" delegated legislation committee
Various MPs were in attendance.
Here is the “secret” Hansard entry

"more than half of estates will pay nothing, because they are either exempt or do not require a grant of probate"
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...2b/DraftNon-ContentiousProbate(Fees)Order2018

If some people like Cable want to get their knickers in a twist now after all that procedure, the first obvious question is what the hell have they being doing all this time? They could have raised an objection for full parliamentary debate ages ago.

You can normally access for funeral/memorial costs. Other than that it may vary from bank to bank. However, a solicitor, if folk are using one, may front the cost as part of their own expenses.

Recently been through it all and did incur large personal costs before the probate grant. The actual grant takes only a couple of weeks to come through. It's the three months I spent to get the estate accounts constructed that took the time. The plus side was I saved the £6.5k my solicitor would have charged to get an admin clerk to do it.

 

[pastafarian]

You can normally access for funeral/memorial costs. Other than that it may vary from bank to bank. However, a solicitor, if folk are using one, may front the cost as part of their own expenses.

Recently been through it all and did incur large personal costs before the probate grant. The actual grant takes only a couple of weeks to come through. It's the three months I spent to get the estate accounts constructed that took the time. The plus side was I saved the £6.5k my solicitor would have charged to get an admin clerk to do it.

It would seem they have been working with various financial institutions to get the probate fee accessable from the estate as well as things like funeral expenses.

"We have been working with UK Finance, the Building Societies Association and the Money Advice Service. The industry has set out bereavement principles to encourage its members to support the bereaved and allow necessary payments to be made from the deceased’s account to cover expenses, including probate fees, where possible."

from the Hansard link earlier

 

[chimneys]

Yes, I think I have misunderstood the history of this tax, despite having dealt with it thrice.
I concede I have got it wrong in this particular case.

Apology accepted by your "trusting friend"!

 

[cunning fergus]

When is a tax not a tax?

Answer - When the Tories call it fee to avoid full debate and voting in Parliament

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6680473/Fury-sneaky-6-000-death-tax-set-hit-300-000-families.html

Given rising house prices many will be caught by the higher costs, which are payable up front before any funds are accessed.

And to think Parliament sloped off early this week due to the lack of business laid down by the Government.

This is a great thread, a moan from a tory about the tories helping those tories with assets keep more of their assets. Those who refer to their parents as Mother and Father can sleep easy under the goose feathered eiderdowns....

Next week, I will look forward to a whine about a tax on the consumption of Grouse and Port.

 

[Nitram]

From experience with dealing with two probates in the last few years this will be a big burden on those who have to sort out estates on behalf of a deceased. Probate fees currently cannot be paid as an expense out of the estate. Weasel words from the Tories to suggest this may happen could be a smokescreen. They know how unpopular this matter is. They tried to get it passed a few years ago but were stopped. Now it seems that they have sneaked it through.
How many of us could find £2,500 to £6000? It's bad enough having to sort out a person's estate without having a personal financial burden. Some estates can takes years ro sort out. Even a simple one would take three months minimum. So the time to recoup the money is unknown. Pathetic money grabbing exercise.
Just to add Executors who would have to pay this money may not even be the main beneficiaries or the estate could be split in any number of ways. For all those being high and mighty about this the reality of dealing with an estate is expensive and very time consuming. Most homeowning people living in Brighton and surrounding area are going to have estates in excess of £500k.

 

[vegster]

As mentioned it won't affect too many people anyway, if you are sat on £1m pounds worth of assets £2.5 K is a drop in the ocean. Also I would fully expect this to be radically altered or quietly dropped in the next 40-50 years due to the plunging rates of home ownership ( where most of the value of an estate lies) thanks to the nexus of spiralling house prices combined with low wages causing a massive increase in renting rather than owning.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Im all for increased inheritance taxes. In many ways its the best time to tax a person.

 

[soistes]

I really fail to understand why people get so upset about inheritance tax. On balance I think that it's one of the fairest taxes there is. Interestingly this view tends to be shared by a fair number of informed economic commentators (not the Daily Mail..) on both the left and right.

So the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/dec/30/inheritance-tax
and the New Statesman
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2008/04/inheritance-tax-stuart-white

But also the Economist
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2017/11/23/a-hated-tax-but-a-fair-one
and even the Spectator
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2007/10/listen-to-adam-smith-inheritance-tax-is-good/

 

[wellquickwoody]

The majority of people will have an estate worth less than £500k. A lot will be worth way, way less than that.
And that my trusting friend, is how the Tory’s tax the poor and less well off. Take a smaller amount off a larger amount of people. Sneaky, snidey, cynical. The Tories.

£750 to inherit £499,999.99? Bet Labour would call that ‘wealthy’ and make it £20k.