[Football] To all the Southgate haters / wrong again and again and again **SOUTHGATE NOW RESIGNED**

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think Southgate has done well in breaking the club cliques that existed before his tenure, and getting to finals and semis.
He has made the England team quite representative if the country, dull, and not as good as it should be for the talent that is in it.

As I posted elsewhere, one could argue that football has changed and (Man U aside) the Billy big bollox mentality and club cliques is a thing of the past in the EPL. Look how matey the EPL players are after a game. Can you imagine Roy Keane cuddling an opponent and having a chat after the final whistle?

Having slept on it, the decision to stick with Kane was poor, and using the keeper to make play like he does at Everton is idiotic.

 

[Hamilton]

Slovakia was a minute away from being another Iceland nadir. Even then, England needed extra time.

We weren't good enough to outscore Switzerland in 2 hours of football before penalties.

Netherlands was better for a half, but unconvincing over the full 90 mins.

After that, Spain was always likely to be a foregone conclusion.

And all that drama was on the easier side of the draw.

I put this on another thread, but think it's worth repeating.

It's still amazing that England have still only ever won one trophy.

Among other European nations this is the haul of trophies.

Germany - 9
France - 9
Italy - 7
Spain - 7
Hungary - 3
Czech Republic - 2
Portugal - 2
Denmark - 1
England - 1
Greece - 1
Netherlands - 1
Russia - 1

WTF have we been doing? Gareth isn't alone in missing the spot, but surely over the past ten years we've had some of the best players available?

 

[Dick Swiveller]

, but I think he has wasted the resources he has had at his disposal through misplaced loyalty and old conservative ideas.

Does that mean he is sending Kane to Rwanda?

 

[BadFish]

I put this on another thread, but think it's worth repeating.

It's still amazing that England have still only ever won one trophy.

Among other European nations this is the haul of trophies.

Germany - 9
France - 9
Italy - 7
Spain - 7
Hungary - 3
Czech Republic - 2
Portugal - 2
Denmark - 1
England - 1
Greece - 1
Netherlands - 1
Russia - 1

WTF have we been doing? Gareth isn't alone in missing the spot, but surely over the past ten years we've had some of the best players available?

Fifty Years of Hurt by Henry Winter

The nation's top football writer with an agenda-changing book on where England football went wrong after winning the World Cup in 1966, and how to put it right.

www.penguin.com.au

Quite an interesting question discussed in this video and more fully in Henry Winters book.

There are many different answers that have worked together to f*** us up.

We have been closer over the last few tournaments so hopefully the powers that be will make the necessary changes to push us on to a glorious victory.

 

[Hamilton]

Does that mean he is sending Kane to Rwanda?

He'd have had as much impact had he been there.

 

[Hamilton]

Fifty Years of Hurt by Henry Winter

The nation's top football writer with an agenda-changing book on where England football went wrong after winning the World Cup in 1966, and how to put it right.

www.penguin.com.au

Quite an interesting question discussed in this video and more fully in Henry Winters book.

There are many different answers that have worked together to f*** us up.

We have been closer over the last few tournaments so hopefully the powers that be will make the necessary changes to push us on to a glorious victory.

I just hope the powers that be don't think that what they've got already is working when it's not.

What's so painfully lamentable is that it is all so bloody obvious. I reckon Gareth was among a minority that included my neighbour's cat and a seven year old girl obsessed with Barbie dolls not to see what needed changing in every game.

In fact, I think that's a bit harsh on the seven-year-old. And the cat.

 

[Flounce]

Our riches in attacking midfield have deserved a manager who would play on the front foot and get them forward without fear.

Defensive disjointed football that relies on isolated moments of brilliance will normally only take you so far.

It'll flatter to deceive with 'successful' deep runs in tournaments on the quality of the players alone.

But then you meet a team that passes and plays you off the park and normality is restored.

With all the colours available, Southgate's England have been playing in monochrome.

Time for a tactical artist to bring some bold vivid brushstrokes to England's canvas.

Did we even have a midfield in the last 10 mins?

 

[Milano]

I put this on another thread, but think it's worth repeating.

It's still amazing that England have still only ever won one trophy.

Among other European nations this is the haul of trophies.

Germany - 9
France - 9
Italy - 7
Spain - 7
Hungary - 3
Czech Republic - 2
Portugal - 2
Denmark - 1
England - 1
Greece - 1
Netherlands - 1
Russia - 1

WTF have we been doing? Gareth isn't alone in missing the spot, but surely over the past ten years we've had some of the best players available?

England improving and producing better and better quality players is no fluke. It was/is a long term vision.

Over the last 10+ years the FA have invested tens of millions of £ on a state of the art facility predominently for England's use. They also deployed standardised junior/youth coaching schemes which are adopted across the country.

Most EPL clubs have invested similar amounts on their own facilities and vitally their own pathway programs.

It is the latter which is now bearing fruit for young England players, it is no fluke that the likes of Foden, Saka, Palmer etc are emerging in greater quality and quantities and I think this will only increase.

So it is an absolute mystery to me why the FA appointed and have continued with a head coach who failed at club level (not even top club level) and surrounds himself with asssitant coaches of similar or worse standard. All the while paying him more salary than some head coaches in the EPL earn. Madness.

 

[Hamilton]

England improving and producing better and better quality players is no fluke. It was/is a long term vision.

Over the last 10+ years the FA have invested tens of millions of £ on a state of the art facility predominently for England's use. They also deployed standardised junior/youth coaching schemes which are adopted across the country.

Most EPL clubs have invested similar amounts on their own facilities and vitally their own pathway programs.

It is the latter which is now bearing fruit for young England players, it is no fluke that the likes of Foden, Saka, Palmer etc are emerging in greater quality and quantities and I think this will only increase.

So it is an absolute mystery to me why the FA appointed and have continued with a head coach who failed at club level (not even top club level) and surrounds himself with asssitant coaches of similar or worse standard. All the while paying him more salary than some head coaches in the EPL earn. Madness.

Great post.

Whoever does come in, the first thing I want them to say at a press conference is this:

"England will win a trophy in the next 4 years."

I want a manager who sets high expectations rather than attempts to manage them. Some might see that as arrogance. I see it as confidence. I want us to set us a clear goal and go for it.

 

[herecomesaregular]

At the end of the day, our “ word class” players are only mentioned as such because they have far better foreign players playing around them. Perfect example is foden. He is a world beater for city and truly shite for England.

spanish players as shown yesterday are those world class players who help ours look good, ie Rodri.

bottom line is we fluked our way through this tournament with dodgy penalty decisions and last gasp efforts.

spain beat Germany, France and us to win it. They had countless chances to bury us yesterday and a bit of luck that would have been 4 or 5.

we move on and probably smug Eddie or potter the new manager…although personally I would go with klopp who at least knows how to win things

but being an England fan we all know disappointment on a regular basis and can we please ditch “ it’s coming home” now please.

Foden was inches away from two great goals vs Netherlands in case you've forgotten...

 

[BadFish]

England improving and producing better and better quality players is no fluke. It was/is a long term vision.

Over the last 10+ years the FA have invested tens of millions of £ on a state of the art facility predominently for England's use. They also deployed standardised junior/youth coaching schemes which are adopted across the country.

Most EPL clubs have invested similar amounts on their own facilities and vitally their own pathway programs.

It is the latter which is now bearing fruit for young England players, it is no fluke that the likes of Foden, Saka, Palmer etc are emerging in greater quality and quantities and I think this will only increase.

So it is an absolute mystery to me why the FA appointed and have continued with a head coach who failed at club level (not even top club level) and surrounds himself with asssitant coaches of similar or worse standard. All the while paying him more salary than some head coaches in the EPL earn. Madness.

There needs to be an improvement in English coaches, we are way behind in this area and it needs to improve.

 

[Stato]

I put this on another thread, but think it's worth repeating.

It's still amazing that England have still only ever won one trophy.

Among other European nations this is the haul of trophies.

Germany - 9
France - 9
Italy - 7
Spain - 7
Hungary - 3
Czech Republic - 2
Portugal - 2
Denmark - 1
England - 1
Greece - 1
Netherlands - 1
Russia - 1

WTF have we been doing? Gareth isn't alone in missing the spot, but surely over the past ten years we've had some of the best players available?

Not amazing when you know how those countries have gone about that success and how far away from those models our FA was for decades. Our game was run by amateurs mostly interested in protecting their own interests. They took the view, for quite some time, that England's innate superiority meant that we didn't really have to try. They never learned any lessons from other country's approaches in the way the Germans did. They never decided upon a style of play and set up everything to service that the way the Spanish did. They never produced a targeted plan that the whole of their football had to serve in the way the French did. The English game was always primarily about money. The FA's main interest was to get it's hands on the largest share it could of that money. Clubs called the tune because they were the source of the TV revenue.

However, in recent years the international arm of the FA has been organised far more professionally and the improvement at tournaments has been a refelction of that investment. Young players are now much more technical. They are better coached from a young age. There is a clear pathway to the first team. Behind the scenes England are now doing the things that Brighton have been lauded for at club level. Ashworth actually came from England to set us up to do that. However, when Ashworth arrived at Brighton we were being managed by a decent honorable man who was very good at managing a team to play pragmatic football and that man was sacked and replaced with a succession of managers who could set a team up to keep the ball and dominate opponents.

That's England's next step. Despite the thread title, it's not hatred of Southgate, it's just knowing his value, but also his limitations. We all still love Chris Hughton, but surely none of us ever regret Tony's tough call to dismiss him.

 

[Dave the hatosaurus]

Great post.

Whoever does come in, the first thing I want them to say at a press conference is this:

"England will win a trophy in the next 4 years."

I want a manager who sets high expectations rather than attempts to manage them. Some might see that as arrogance. I see it as confidence. I want us to set us a clear goal and go for it.

Whoever does come in............
My biggest fear from last night is that the FA will think we cannot be seen to get rid of "England's most successful manager" and will carry on regardless.
To which my thought would be that it is surely the height of folly to keep doing the same thing every tournament and expect a different result.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

All the while there is an underlying sense of arrogance and entitlement (and it still exists amongst the British media and amongst some of the supporters - mainly the older ones) things will never really improve IMO. It breeds the delusion that we don't need to change the manager or team and all we have to do is turn up and everything will be fine. Teams like Germany, France, Spain and Italy have earnt the right to exhibit a certain arrogance and swagger - they are winners as their cabinets full of silverware demonstrate. We don't have that luxury at the moment.

 

[Hamilton]

Fifty Years of Hurt by Henry Winter

The nation's top football writer with an agenda-changing book on where England football went wrong after winning the World Cup in 1966, and how to put it right.

www.penguin.com.au

Quite an interesting question discussed in this video and more fully in Henry Winters book.

There are many different answers that have worked together to f*** us up.

We have been closer over the last few tournaments so hopefully the powers that be will make the necessary changes to push us on to a glorious victory.

BTW, that is a great little film. Well worth watching/listening to.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I put this on another thread, but think it's worth repeating.

It's still amazing that England have still only ever won one trophy.

Among other European nations this is the haul of trophies.

Germany - 9
France - 9
Italy - 7
Spain - 7
Hungary - 3
Czech Republic - 2
Portugal - 2
Denmark - 1
England - 1
Greece - 1
Netherlands - 1
Russia - 1

WTF have we been doing? Gareth isn't alone in missing the spot, but surely over the past ten years we've had some of the best players available?

We as a footballing nation spent 1970 till 1996 with our head up our entitled arse, with absurd fans thinking 'we invented the game so...' and English players as yet under-exposed to the clean living professionalism of those who would soon become their foreign team mates, and failing to qualify for tournaments. I hadn't even heard of the Euros till 96.

Since 98 we have been slowly trying to board men onto the Marie Celeste (of the FA) and turn the ship around. I would say that in the last ten years we have finally got something that resembles a functional rubric. Now, with a proper manager, there is some hope we may actuall win something.

Let's see who comes in next.

 

[Hamilton]

Whoever does come in............
My biggest fear from last night is that the FA will think we cannot be seen to get rid of "England's most successful manager" and will carry on regardless.
To which my thought would be that it is surely the height of folly to keep doing the same thing every tournament and expect a different result.

Surely they won't keep him?

Surely he won't stay?

Oh God. Please, no!

I'm just gutted that the manager we need might not get the run of luck that Gareth got with the fixture draws we've had in recent tournaments.

 

[Hamilton]

We as a footballing nation spent 1970 till 1996 with our head up our entitled arse, with absurd fans thinking 'we invented the game so...' and English players as yet under-exposed to the clean living professionalism of those who would soon become their foreign team mates, and failing to qualify for tournaments. I hadn't even heard of the Euros till 96.

Since 98 we have been slowly trying to board men onto the Marie Celeste (of the FA) and turn the ship around. I would say that in the last ten years we have finally got something that resembles a functional rubric. Now, with a proper manager, there is some hope we may actuall win something.

Let's see who comes in next.

You hadn't heard of the Euros until 1996? Really?

As to inventing the game, we all know that people have kicked round things about since the cavemen, but the facts are that we did codify the game and export it, so we did invent it just as the Scots lay claim to golf and the French have a claim to modern day tennis.

I ain't letting that claim go, and why should we. Let's celebrate the half-decent things we've done.

But you're right, we wasted most of the thirties being aloof and most of the seventies being woefully out of touch.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You hadn't heard of the Euros until 1996? Really?

As to inventing the game, we all know that people have kicked round things about since the cavemen, but the facts are that we did codify the game and export it, so we did invent it just as the Scots lay claim to golf and the French have a claim to modern day tennis.

I ain't letting that claim go, and why should we. Let's celebrate the half-decent things we've done.

But you're right, we wasted most of the thirties being aloof and most of the seventies being woefully out of touch.

I'm not saying I think we invented the game. I'm saying that's part of the entitled narrative of others that helped condone the uselessness of the FA, rather than fuel a clamour for change. I recall at one time the trope was that England would never win anything because the officials are all biased against us. Episodes such as 'the hand of god' fuelled that. The idea that we should be doing better and that there may be something suboptimal in English football didn't trigger the start of any sort of change till after 98.

I genuinely did not know anything about the Euros till 96. I seem to recall we were beaten by Denmark in 92 but I wasn't watching. I had other pressing issues. Before that, it is all a mystery.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I really haven’t enjoyed the Euro’s because the outcome was inevitable, the fact that we played Spain in the final was rubbing salt into the wounds. I did get to call slideshow Bob a **** in Spanish which did make me feel a bit better!

Southgate style of football is 15 years too late, he just doesn’t realise it. Worse you need to have the players to play a defensive ‘don’t concede’ style of play and the present set of players are very much the opposite of that. His tactics constrained them rather than getting the best out of them.

It was obvious that Kane wasn’t working and that there were better options on the bench but he only used these as a ‘hail Mary’ in the dying minutes of the game. His inability to drop Kane, even when the evidence showed that he should be is inexcusable. His job is to make these decisions for the betterment of the team rather than the player. He has form on this with Maguire, Henderson and Dier. It’s not the school play ground where you pick your mates!
He made a big thing when he was first in post about picking form players rather than names …. only he did the very opposite.

A game is over 90 minutes so why wait until the last 10 to actually try and win the game. If we continue to go into a game with a mind set of trying not to lose then we will never win anything. There were signs against the Dutch where 3 at the back was working, so why not carry on with that? The answer clearly was ‘I’m not comfortable with that as it’s risky so let’s go to plan A’.