This Hold-up Player thing

[mune ni kamome]

Just a thought but if we need a hold up player isn't that a sign that things have gone wrong. Watford didn't have a hold up player. They didn't need one, they came fast through the middle with quick passes, flicks, back-heels and one-twos and they cut through us like a knife through butter. Just like a proper European team. Just like Gus's dream for us.
A hold-up player means what it says, play is going to stop while the rest of the team catch up. It means there is no pass on. It means the attack is going to be slow and probing and the defence has a chance to get organised as usual. We don't need a hold-up player to replace CMS. We just need to attack quicker and with more people. One of the consequences of getting Barnes, KLL or anyone to tackle back is that poor old CMS must try to hold it up while he waits for some team-mates to join him. Not part of his game and not why we bought him surely. He shouldn't have his back to goal like this all the time.
I could understand a big no.9 alongside to provide some flick-ons or even to head for goal from corners or crosses just to mix things up a bit but hold-up player, no thanks.
Not to be confused of course with a close control genius which is what I think people on here really want to replace CMS with. Messi, Suarez, Aguerro etc, able to receive the ball in tight situations, turn and create space for a shot with a sublime flick of the shoulder. They cost many millions unfortunately.

 

[Jim D]

Just a thought but if we need a hold up player isn't that a sign that things have gone wrong. Watford didn't have a hold up player. They didn't need one, they came fast through the middle with quick passes, flicks, back-heels and one-twos and they cut through us like a knife through butter. Just like a proper European team. Just like Gus's dream for us.
A hold-up player means what it says, play is going to stop while the rest of the team catch up. It means there is no pass on. It means the attack is going to be slow and probing and the defence has a chance to get organised as usual. We don't need a hold-up player to replace CMS. We just need to attack quicker and with more people. One of the consequences of getting Barnes, KLL or anyone to tackle back is that poor old CMS must try to hold it up while he waits for some team-mates to join him. Not part of his game and not why we bought him surely. He shouldn't have his back to goal like this all the time.
I could understand a big no.9 alongside to provide some flick-ons or even to head for goal from corners or crosses just to mix things up a bit but hold-up player, no thanks.
Not to be confused of course with a close control genius which is what I think people on here really want to replace CMS with. Messi, Suarez, Aguerro etc, able to receive the ball in tight situations, turn and create space for a shot with a sublime flick of the shoulder. They cost many millions unfortunately.

Vicente played in a similar way against Chelsea. Maybe this is Gus's big plan for a new striker?

 

[beorhthelm]

it should be clear by now that we are not set up to play like Barcelona but like south american teams. we are far too slow to cut through the opposition, so all the possession is for nought. we need an outlet who can hold and allow the midfield/inside fowards to get up the field and support.

 

[Rugrat]

We lack pace in midfield and none of Hammond, Crofts, Orlandi or Lopez give us any. Watford was a good example, by the time we got the ball into the last third they had two lines behind the ball and pretty well stopped us doing anything. The way I see it a hold up player will allow us to get more forward and provide more outlets. But then that's what Paynter and voles were supposed to do, perhaps neither very good but it added bugger all imo.

Personally I'd rather see us buy a bit of pace and be more direct. I reckon most of our best teams play this way but the argument here (I think) is that the Championship is less suited to that style. Me, I'd try and get someone like Williams from Palace, reckon it would improve our fortunes dramatically

 

[Charlies Shinpad]

I reckon we should go for broke and sell CMS and get Charlie Austin and DJ Campbell in. Ideal pair to get us up into the play offs etc

 

[big nuts]

More then anything we need a physical presence in the box, someone who can win and compete for headers. At present we have no one who can do this, we pose no threat from set pieces and headed goals from us are a rarity. If you take headed goals out of the equation you really are minimising your opportunities to score goals.

So the hold up aspect wouldn't be the main reason for signing another striker, although someone who can make the ball stick up there would certainly help us. At present we have no 'out' ball and the ball tends to come straight back at us if we have to hit it long.

 

[bhawoddy]

Just a thought but if we need a hold up player isn't that a sign that things have gone wrong. Watford didn't have a hold up player. They didn't need one, they came fast through the middle with quick passes, flicks, back-heels and one-twos and they cut through us like a knife through butter. Just like a proper European team. Just like Gus's dream for us.
A hold-up player means what it says, play is going to stop while the rest of the team catch up. It means there is no pass on. It means the attack is going to be slow and probing and the defence has a chance to get organised as usual. We don't need a hold-up player to replace CMS. We just need to attack quicker and with more people. One of the consequences of getting Barnes, KLL or anyone to tackle back is that poor old CMS must try to hold it up while he waits for some team-mates to join him. Not part of his game and not why we bought him surely. He shouldn't have his back to goal like this all the time.
I could understand a big no.9 alongside to provide some flick-ons or even to head for goal from corners or crosses just to mix things up a bit but hold-up player, no thanks.
Not to be confused of course with a close control genius which is what I think people on here really want to replace CMS with. Messi, Suarez, Aguerro etc, able to receive the ball in tight situations, turn and create space for a shot with a sublime flick of the shoulder. They cost many millions unfortunately.

I think your idea of a hold up type player is a little misguided to be honest. We need a striker who has a decent all round game which includes bringing our midfielders into the game. This is what we currently miss. Having a decent hold up type player actually increases the tempo of the team not slows it down as the ball gets forward quicker and players break from midfield faster to receive it in better positions in which to attack the oppo.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Just a thought but if we need a hold up player isn't that a sign that things have gone wrong. Watford didn't have a hold up player. They didn't need one, they came fast through the middle with quick passes, flicks, back-heels and one-twos and they cut through us like a knife through butter. Just like a proper European team. Just like Gus's dream for us.
A hold-up player means what it says, play is going to stop while the rest of the team catch up. It means there is no pass on. It means the attack is going to be slow and probing and the defence has a chance to get organised as usual. We don't need a hold-up player to replace CMS. We just need to attack quicker and with more people. One of the consequences of getting Barnes, KLL or anyone to tackle back is that poor old CMS must try to hold it up while he waits for some team-mates to join him. Not part of his game and not why we bought him surely. He shouldn't have his back to goal like this all the time.
I could understand a big no.9 alongside to provide some flick-ons or even to head for goal from corners or crosses just to mix things up a bit but hold-up player, no thanks.
Not to be confused of course with a close control genius which is what I think people on here really want to replace CMS with. Messi, Suarez, Aguerro etc, able to receive the ball in tight situations, turn and create space for a shot with a sublime flick of the shoulder. They cost many millions unfortunately.

Broadly, I think people are just reacting to the very obvious need for a forward who can actually protect the ball, and retain possesion, to bring others into play.

He doesn't need to be a giant, although arial threat is another deficiency, so a big forward with a good touch kills two birds with one stone. You talk of Aguerro. We actually need Dzeko.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I think your idea of a hold up type player is a little misguided to be honest. We need a striker who has a decent all round game which includes bringing our midfielders into the game. This is what we currently miss. Having a decent hold up type player actually increases the tempo of the team not slows it down as the ball gets forward quicker and players break from midfield faster to receive it in better positions in which to attack the oppo.

Correct.

 

[big nuts]

I think your idea of a hold up type player is a little misguided to be honest. We need a striker who has a decent all round game which includes bringing our midfielders into the game. This is what we currently miss. Having a decent hold up type player actually increases the tempo of the team not slows it down as the ball gets forward quicker and players break from midfield faster to receive it in better positions in which to attack the oppo.

Very true.

 

[wehatepalace]

We need
A. Someone who can head a ball, a striker who is strong and physical and will worry the centre backs.
And
B. Someone who has a bit of pace and isn't scared to run at the defence and is not terrified of striking the ball at the goal.
Whether that is one player or two I don't know, it's up to Gus, but in my opinion that is what we've been missing since Murray went.
CMS is neither of those.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Watford had Troy Deeney - he's the type of player we need. He's a physical presence, without being massive, but he could hold the ball up & bring others into play. We don't need a 6 foot 3 giant, but we do need a Deeney/Murray type player who is a threat in the air but is also comfortable with the ball to feet.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

I think your idea of a hold up type player is a little misguided to be honest. We need a striker who has a decent all round game which includes bringing our midfielders into the game. This is what we currently miss. Having a decent hold up type player actually increases the tempo of the team not slows it down as the ball gets forward quicker and players break from midfield faster to receive it in better positions in which to attack the oppo.

Seems fair enough. I would add the key for me though is someone who takes his chances. We have done okay this season in terms of creating chances with CMS as the main front man, the problem is having someone who takes the chances (I realise that is stating the obvious).

 

[withdeanwombat]

In the end it's the formation isn't it?

CMS is up there on his own,magically appearing first on one flank,then the othr,centring and miraculously beaming down to meet his own pass,and...bang...goal.

Watford sprang forward and suddenly four or more players were bearing down on our goal.Dangerous stuff,and if it wasn't for a century and a half of organised football,revolutionary.

Our style,when it works,is flowing.Often pleasing on the eye.But more and more often not.

In the early sixties we had a manager whose stated view was that if the opposition didn't score,you couldn't lose.But the other side of THAT coin is that if you don't score you CAN'T win.

That seems to be about where we stand now.What we need is Lua Lua and Buckley up with CMS and A.N.Other when we attack.We need to attack quickly - and often - to bring entertainment back into our game,otherwise all we'll have to talk about is pies,and programme costs,possibly Arsene Wenger's zip problems.

Our visit to Oldham.

 

[Kneon Light]

We need
A. Someone who can head a ball, a striker who is strong and physical and will worry the centre backs.
And
B. Someone who has a bit of pace and isn't scared to run at the defence and is not terrified of striking the ball at the goal.
Whether that is one player or two I don't know, it's up to Gus, but in my opinion that is what we've been missing since Murray went.
CMS is neither of those.

I think B is what we have been missing since Elliot Bennett went/vicente got injured.
I would add to your list a dominant pacy centre back

 

[Stumpy Tim]

In the end it's the formation isn't it?

CMS is up there on his own,magically appearing first on one flank,then the othr,centring and miraculously beaming down to meet his own pass,and...bang...goal.

Watford sprang forward and suddenly four or more players were bearing down on our goal.Dangerous stuff,and if it wasn't for a century and a half of organised football,revolutionary.

Our style,when it works,is flowing.Often pleasing on the eye.But more and more often not.

In the early sixties we had a manager whose stated view was that if the opposition didn't score,you couldn't lose.But the other side of THAT coin is that if you don't score you CAN'T win.

That seems to be about where we stand now.What we need is Lua Lua and Buckley up with CMS and A.N.Other when we attack.We need to attack quickly - and often - to bring entertainment back into our game,otherwise all we'll have to talk about is pies,and programme costs,possibly Arsene Wenger's zip problems.

Our visit to Oldham.

What Watford did was break very quickly... having a striker who could hold the ball up was central to that. We could do the same with the pace we have in Buckley and Lua Lua, and the energy of Crofts. Unfortunately at the moment, when the ball hits CMS, it pings off his shin and runs to an opposition player or a throw-in. This is why people say he doesn't suit the way we play... he wants the ball over the top - he won't get that at the Albion

 

[hans kraay fan club]

This is why people say he doesn't suit the way we play... he wants the ball over the top - he won't get that at the Albion

Correct

 

[JTR938]

Could'nt agree with BEORHTHLEM more!!
We have one of if not THE smallest teams in the championchip! Look at the likes or Midlesborough, Millwall, Burnley, Leeds, Forest most of the teams in fact they have some big bloody guy's in there midfiels/upfront. Whilst they may not play the prety football they are acheiving results!!

 

[Surf's Up]

IMO we lack movement off the ball, Watford had it in spades

 

[Billy the Fish]

I think your idea of a hold up type player is a little misguided to be honest. We need a striker who has a decent all round game which includes bringing our midfielders into the game. This is what we currently miss. Having a decent hold up type player actually increases the tempo of the team not slows it down as the ball gets forward quicker and players break from midfield faster to receive it in better positions in which to attack the oppo.

In the end it's the formation isn't it?

CMS is up there on his own,magically appearing first on one flank,then the othr,centring and miraculously beaming down to meet his own pass,and...bang...goal.

Watford sprang forward and suddenly four or more players were bearing down on our goal.Dangerous stuff,and if it wasn't for a century and a half of organised football,revolutionary.

Our style,when it works,is flowing.Often pleasing on the eye.But more and more often not.

In the early sixties we had a manager whose stated view was that if the opposition didn't score,you couldn't lose.But the other side of THAT coin is that if you don't score you CAN'T win.

That seems to be about where we stand now.What we need is Lua Lua and Buckley up with CMS and A.N.Other when we attack.We need to attack quickly - and often - to bring entertainment back into our game,otherwise all we'll have to talk about is pies,and programme costs,possibly Arsene Wenger's zip problems.

Our visit to Oldham.

IMO we lack movement off the ball, Watford had it in spades

I agree with all of these things.

Just getting a striker that can hold the ball up will not solve our problems, but it will help and give us other options. As others have said CMS is the wrong players for Gus' style and and to play up front on his own.

At the moment we move the ball too slowly and are very predictable, CMS gets marked out of the game and we have no outlet. I'd say the formation is just as much to blame for that. Gus could just as easily change to a solid 4-4-2 with two centre midfielders, a winger either side and two up front and we wouldn't necessarily need someone who can hold the ball up.