The poor spend all the money - isn't it obvious?

[kevo]

Fantastic article by Mark Steel:

The poor spend all the money. Isn’t it obvious? - Comment - Voices - The Independent

 

[Lewes' best seagull]

Thanks for sharing, that was an excellent read.

It’s a tricky argument to pull off, that the poor caused the debt so they should pay it back. Maybe that’s why most weeks there are stories in certain newspapers about a woman with 45 kids on benefits, who then bought a giraffe and now that’s on benefits but she said it was cramped so the council has put it up in the Shard, and two of the kids have got Compulsive Potting Disorder so they’ve been given a snooker table but she couldn’t be referee because she’s allergic to white gloves so the mayor has to do it, otherwise he’d be put in jail by Europe.

 

[Comedy Steve]

Fantastic article by Mark Steel:

The poor spend all the money. Isn’t it obvious? - Comment - Voices - The Independent

Brilliant.

 

[Gullys Cats]

Brilliant

 

[dingodan]

I can see why people admire this article. But.

People raise concerns about vast amounts of money being wasted, and some of it is wasted in the benefits system. Sarcastically responding with "yes, the poor are to blame for everything" etc is kind of childish, that is not what is being said. And saying that there is a problem with the welfare system is not the same as not caring about poor people, a dysfunctional unsustainable system is of benefit to nobody.

This article is basically just pushing the idea of "the rich vs the poor" and it's a question of who we are going to blame for our situation. As funny as the article is, this way of looking at things, while seductive, is not the right approach.

 

[spring hall convert]

I can see why people admire this article. But.

People raise concerns about vast amounts of money being wasted, and some of it is wasted in the benefits system. Sarcastically responding with "yes, the poor are to blame for everything" etc is kind of childish, that is not what is being said. And saying that there is a problem with the welfare system is not the same as not caring about poor people, a dysfunctional unsustainable system is of benefit to nobody.

This article is basically just pushing the idea of "the rich vs the poor" and it's a question of who we are going to blame for our situation. As funny as the article is, this way of looking at things, while seductive, is not the right approach.

To be fair it's nowhere near as divisive as an agenda that seeks only to pit "deserving poor" versus "undeserving poor." I just find it amazing that people aren't getting really angry about this, I suppose they haven't got much time for dissent as there's floors that need cleaning at Poundland.

 

[Hans Kraay]

Shame he's a palace fan . Good read

 

[dingodan]

To be fair it's nowhere near as divisive as an agenda that seeks only to pit "deserving poor" versus "undeserving poor." I just find it amazing that people aren't getting really angry about this, I suppose they haven't got much time for dissent as there's floors that need cleaning at Poundland.

How about not pitting anyone against anyone? How about realizing that we are all personally responsible for both our collective, and our individual situations?

Then we can start thinking about how we can change things for the better.

 

[spring hall convert]

How about not pitting anyone against anyone? How about realizing that we are all personally responsible for both our collective, and our individual situations?

Then we can start thinking about how we can change things for the better.

So who has been held accountable for the Bank collapse in this country? Where's the personal responsibility for the banking system?

 

[Billy the Fish]

I just find it amazing that people aren't getting really angry about this, I suppose they haven't got much time for dissent as there's floors that need cleaning at Poundland.

Because on the whole our standard of living in this country is better than it's ever been, despite the banking crisis and all the rest of it. In fact it has probably peaked and is only going to get worse for the next generation and there's nothing any politician can do about it, other than delay the process.

We are socially poorer though, there is no community anymore. Perhaps that's also a reason there's no uprising anymore, everyone is stuck in their box watching telly and going on facebook.

 

[dingodan]

So who has been held accountable for the Bank collapse in this country? Where's the personal responsibility for the banking system?

Good question. Who is to blame though? "The rich"? No.

In truth I think that individuals could be prosecuted for financial crimes, fraud and similar. The fact is that when it comes to the very wealthy and powerful, our society is lawless. The fact that we live in a lawless society is the responsibility of us all.

 

[South Stand Rebel]

Good question. Who is to blame though? "The rich"? No.

In truth I think that individuals could be prosecuted for financial crimes, fraud and similar. The fact is that when it comes to the very wealthy and powerful, our society is lawless. The fact that we live in a lawless society is the responsibility of us all.

Why aren't the rich to blame?

Our society isn't lawless for the vast majority of us. It is the society of the powerful and rich that is lawless. They subvert the system. They influence the decision makers. They get the laws changed to suit themselves.

You say it is the responsibility of us all. That would only be true if we were all equal. Do you honestly still believe we are living in a democracy?

 

[raymondbriggs]

Our society isn't lawless for the vast majority of us. It is the society of the powerful and rich that is lawless. They subvert the system. They influence the decision makers. They get the laws changed to suit themselves.

Well they certainly got the law changed so that newspapers will have trouble reporting their crimes.

Is anyone in "Hacked off" not a criminal,criminally neglegent a pervert or a lying two timing cheat?
They certainly appear to be guilty as charged.(and most have been)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Some old song said - it's the rich that get the pleasure. it's the poor that get the blame.

 

[dingodan]

Why aren't the rich to blame?

Our society isn't lawless for the vast majority of us. It is the society of the powerful and rich that is lawless. They subvert the system. They influence the decision makers. They get the laws changed to suit themselves.

You say it is the responsibility of us all. That would only be true if we were all equal. Do you honestly still believe we are living in a democracy?

Why are the rich to blame? There is getting rich honestly, that should be fine, it should be encouraged if it means providing something good which people want. Then there is getting rich dishonestly, by cheating the taxpayer, stealing stuff from government and generally commiting fraud and manipulating the legal system. These people should go to prison.

Equality is not something abstract and something to aspire to. It's here and now, unfortunately so is injustice. We are all equal, fist and foremost. We may not be treated that way, but we are.

If we think that the answer to these problems is to give the government the power to punish and penalise the productive, basically to steal from the rich and give to the poor, it's misguided. Politically it has some advantages, but in practical terms it is "the road to surfdom", it won't work, it's bad economics, and it is the opposite of a free society.

 

[spring hall convert]

Well they certainly got the law changed so that newspapers will have trouble reporting their crimes.

Is anyone in "Hacked off" not a criminal,criminally neglegent a pervert or a lying two timing cheat?
They certainly appear to be guilty as charged.(and most have been)

And all phone hacking was responsible & in the public interest was it? You know what, as long they don't trade off a squeaky clean public image (Tiger Woods, Hugh Grant to an extent,) then I don't think they're personal lives should be turned into some ghoulish freak show. They are real people too you know.

 

[raymondbriggs]

Why are the rich to blame? There is getting rich honestly, that should be fine, it should be encouraged if it means providing something good which people want. Then there is getting rich dishonestly, by cheating the taxpayer, stealing stuff from government and generally commiting fraud and manipulating the legal system. These people should go to prison.

Equality is not something abstract and something to aspire to. It's here and now, unfortunately so is injustice. We are all equal, fist and foremost. We may not be treated that way, but we are.

If we think that the answer to these problems is to give the government the power to punish and penalise the productive, basically to steal from the rich and give to the poor, it's misguided. Politically it has some advantages, but in practical terms it is "the road to surfdom", it won't work, it's bad economics, and it is the opposite of a free society.

The trouble with that logic is that "the productive rich" are by definition destroyers of value,the poor are adders of value but the system is set to reward higher those that destroy the wealth created by the poor.
Add to that the explosion in management wages since privatisation and demutialisation,the fact that if the minimum wage,since inception,had kept pace with boardroom pay it would now be higher than £19 an hour.
Stick in the mix the bankers bonuses propped up by Libor ,payment protection,interest rate swapping and all the other cons the banks are paying back.Shove in there the Industrials broken up and sold off abroad (British Oxygen as an example) to create a temporary boom in the banking economy bonus pool.

and you get an idea why the rich are to blame.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

Devils advocate....... It's the poor that defaulted on the subprime mortgages ...... Though the rich gave it to them in the first place.

We cant though be too quick to bite the rich. It is their work that created growth in this and other countries that has raised the standard of living so much since the war.

 

[spring hall convert]

Why are the rich to blame? There is getting rich honestly, that should be fine, it should be encouraged if it means providing something good which people want. Then there is getting rich dishonestly, by cheating the taxpayer, stealing stuff from government and generally commiting fraud and manipulating the legal system. These people should go to prison.

Equality is not something abstract and something to aspire to. It's here and now, unfortunately so is injustice. We are all equal, fist and foremost. We may not be treated that way, but we are.

If we think that the answer to these problems is to give the government the power to punish and penalise the productive, basically to steal from the rich and give to the poor, it's misguided. Politically it has some advantages, but in practical terms it is "the road to surfdom", it won't work, it's bad economics, and it is the opposite of a free society.

Where does privatization fit in all of this? I'm not so sure the poor got a good deal there. I mean some of them got a house out of the deal but that's about it.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Why aren't the rich to blame?

Our society isn't lawless for the vast majority of us. It is the society of the powerful and rich that is lawless. They subvert the system. They influence the decision makers. They get the laws changed to suit themselves.

You say it is the responsibility of us all. That would only be true if we were all equal. Do you honestly still believe we are living in a democracy?

The problem is that we live within a political and economic framework that has evolved over the last couple of thousand years and has evolved to be massively loaded in favour of those who were fortunate enough to have rich ancestors.

What can anyone do to change something that old and that entrenched? I've said it on here before that people arguing about tories and labour or republicans and democrats make me laugh, it is the system that's rotten, it's like arguing about whether you'd rather have AIDS or cancer.

The only way out of our current way of life is going to be to wipe out most of the population with disease or famine and begin again. No chance of any mass uprising because it would subjegated straight away.

The personal responsibility comes in the form of looking after your own life properly - everyone has the power to work hard and improve their own situation, of course that is only within the current framework and everyone will have their own personal starting point and various glass ceilings. Life isn't fair, never has been and never will be.