The Law; is it an ass?

[Lenny Rider]

Sorry to sound like Victor Meldrew, but since when has a mini bus of 40 something football fans having a couple of bottles of lager been a threat to public order?

A few minutes before the Stoke police boarded our bus, one of their number witnessed a Stoke fan spit at our bus and used sexual swearwords, is that not threatening behaviour?

 

[GT49er]

It always has been, and always will be as long as our legal system is such a gravy train for those involved in it.

 

[BensGrandad]

I stand to be corrected but am fairly sure that it is an offence to consume alcohol on a coach unless it is dispensed by official sources full stop, something to do with bottles or cans rolling about and could get under the drivers foot. This applies to all coach and bus travel.

In the same light the law is an ass because one of my sons was ejected from Crewe some years ago under a rule which says it is illegal to enter a sport stadium having consumed alcohol, not being under the influence of, yet we fill up The Sportsman before every game and most clubs have a bar or club. He wanted to fight it but was advised by our police liason officer that it was an offence so he would lose. Which he did and was bound over to keep the peace.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I stand to be corrected but am fairly sure that it is an offence to consume alcohol on a coach unless it is dispensed by official sources full stop, something to do with bottles or cans rolling about and could get under the drivers foot. This applies to all coach and bus travel.

OK, BensGrandad, I'll correct you. The regulations that apply to all buses, coaches and minibuses are The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990. There are NO restrictions in these regulations that relate to passengers drinking or carrying alcohol.

There are separate regulations (and "guidelines" for coach operators) that do apply in connection with "designated sporting events". In effect the law is this:

The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1985, as amended by the Public Order Act 1986, prohibits the carriage of alcohol on a PSV that is being used for the principal purpose of carrying passengers for the whole or part of a journey to or from a designated sporting event.

A "designated sporting event" generally means any association football match, whether national or international. The full legal definition of "designated sporting events" may be found in The Sports Grounds and Sporting Events (Designation Order) 1985, as amended by SI 1520/1987.

It is an offence for an operator of a PSV (or his servant or agent) knowingly to cause or permit the carriage of alcohol on journeys to which these Regulations apply.

In addition to these statutory provisions, the police have asked that operators comply with the following guidelines when conveying passengers to such sporting events:

a.Coach operators taking bookings from groups of supporters are to notify the police liaison officer at the destination, at least 48 hours before the event, of the number of supporters expected to travel and the number of coaches booked.

b.Coaches are not to stop within 10 miles of the venue either en route to or on departure from the event unless prior agreement is obtained from the local police liaison officer.

c.Unless directed otherwise by a police officer, coaches may stop at premises where intoxicating liquor is sold only if it is sold ancillary to a substantial meal. Prior agreement for meal stops where alcohol is available should be sought from the operator’s local police liaison officer.

d.Coaches are to arrive at the venue no earlier than two hours before and not later than one hour before the scheduled start of the game, unless otherwise directed by police.

e.Coaches are not to set down or uplift passengers at any unauthorised locations without prior permission of the police.

f.Coaches must leave the venue within one hour of the finish of the event.

g.Intoxicating liquor must not be carried on coaches travelling to or from designated grounds. Operators will draw hirers’ attention to the requirements of the law, and drivers shall, as far as reasonably practical, supervise boarding passengers and check that they are not obviously carrying intoxicating alcohol. Drivers will not be expected to carry out baggage or body searches, nor will they be expected to confiscate alcohol or to remove passengers without police assistance.

Operators are asked to comply with these guidelines on a voluntary basis. However if the police inform the Traffic Commissioner of any failure on an operator’s part to comply with them the Commissioner will consider applying them as a formal condition to that operator’s licence under the authority of Section 16(3) of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981.

 

[Questions]

Sorry to sound like Victor Meldrew, but since when has a mini bus of 40 something football fans having a couple of bottles of lager been a threat to public order?

A few minutes before the Stoke police boarded our bus, one of their number witnessed a Stoke fan spit at our bus and used sexual swearwords, is that not threatening behaviour?

Were you mooning out of the window ?

 

[BensGrandad]

Thank you Lord B for the correction as they say a little knowledge is sometimes harmful it appears I am right about coaches to football matches etc , as were the police but that doesnt cover for all PSV.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

OK, BensGrandad, I'll correct you. The regulations that apply to all buses, coaches and minibuses are The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990. There are NO restrictions in these regulations that relate to passengers drinking or carrying alcohol.

There are separate regulations (and "guidelines" for coach operators) that do apply in connection with "designated sporting events". In effect the law is this:

The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol) Act 1985, as amended by the Public Order Act 1986, prohibits the carriage of alcohol on a PSV that is being used for the principal purpose of carrying passengers for the whole or part of a journey to or from a designated sporting event.

A "designated sporting event" generally means any association football match, whether national or international. The full legal definition of "designated sporting events" may be found in The Sports Grounds and Sporting Events (Designation Order) 1985, as amended by SI 1520/1987.

It is an offence for an operator of a PSV (or his servant or agent) knowingly to cause or permit the carriage of alcohol on journeys to which these Regulations apply.

In addition to these statutory provisions, the police have asked that operators comply with the following guidelines when conveying passengers to such sporting events:

a.Coach operators taking bookings from groups of supporters are to notify the police liaison officer at the destination, at least 48 hours before the event, of the number of supporters expected to travel and the number of coaches booked.

b.Coaches are not to stop within 10 miles of the venue either en route to or on departure from the event unless prior agreement is obtained from the local police liaison officer.

c.Unless directed otherwise by a police officer, coaches may stop at premises where intoxicating liquor is sold only if it is sold ancillary to a substantial meal. Prior agreement for meal stops where alcohol is available should be sought from the operator’s local police liaison officer.

d.Coaches are to arrive at the venue no earlier than two hours before and not later than one hour before the scheduled start of the game, unless otherwise directed by police.

e.Coaches are not to set down or uplift passengers at any unauthorised locations without prior permission of the police.

f.Coaches must leave the venue within one hour of the finish of the event.

g.Intoxicating liquor must not be carried on coaches travelling to or from designated grounds. Operators will draw hirers’ attention to the requirements of the law, and drivers shall, as far as reasonably practical, supervise boarding passengers and check that they are not obviously carrying intoxicating alcohol. Drivers will not be expected to carry out baggage or body searches, nor will they be expected to confiscate alcohol or to remove passengers without police assistance.

Operators are asked to comply with these guidelines on a voluntary basis. However if the police inform the Traffic Commissioner of any failure on an operator’s part to comply with them the Commissioner will consider applying them as a formal condition to that operator’s licence under the authority of Section 16(3) of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981.

What barmy legislation.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

It's been the case for years

Nothing new about it.

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

There seemed a lot of police their yesterday. We asked one for directions to the pub, not being far from the ground, and he tried to disuad us from going to the Harvester as home fans would be there. he seemed quite amazed that, being only 3 of us, we were confident there would be no trouble.

maybe Stoke really is 20 years behind the times, or so the police think, because we had no issues with the locals at all.

 

[BensGrandad]

We went to the Harvester no problem and in so doing I suggested to one of the literally hundred police officers if police leave was cancelled in Staffordshire and he just laughed and said we should feel honoured that they rated our attendance in such numbers.

 

[clapham_gull]

Very efficient, very polite but "pressured" policing.

Was handed a flyer for the Student Union Bar by the police at the station and was told (politely) that was where I was drinking.

We actually went left to get something from the shops and it was reiterated to me that on my return, I would be heading for the student bar

Police came in to the bar and told the staff to close it at 2.

Funny getting on the arranged buses and the driver telling us that the price included a police escort. We were then escorted to the ground as if the vehicle was carrying nuclear fuel.

As I've said, very efficient and very polite but not the sort of experience I seek out if I can avoid it.

Local copper did make we laugh after the game, though as we were waiting for the buses. He promised we would be out of the "shit hole" as quick as possible.

 

[Superseagull]

I was surprised by the number of plod they rolled out for this game. I guess they needed the overtime?

I wonder if the Sussex police will decide the Amex will need manning in the same sort of numbers?

 

[The French Mistress]

It's been the case for years

Nothing new about it.

Since 1986 to be precise .

 

[The French Mistress]

I was surprised by the number of plod they rolled out for this game. I guess they needed the overtime?

I wonder if the Sussex police will decide the Amex will need manning in the same sort of numbers?

You obviously weren't at the Goldstone when we played them, Alan Ball era, most obnoxious bunch of inbreds going. Violent, abusive, and that was just to us old Bill ! No time for them.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Since 1986 to be precise .

I still think it's bloody ridiculous and overly bureaucratic legislation.

The last paragraph about it being voluntary defies logic.

 

[The Large One]

Well, that was possibly a law or two which got slightly fractured on our bus. We arrived at the ground at 14.02.

On the way home the police stopped all the traffic to allow the Albion buses and coaches to leave, effectively clearing the road, and all the other coaches got stuck in the queue heading for the M6. We overtoook them in order to double back and take the quick way home - via the A50 and M1.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I still think it's bloody ridiculous and overly bureaucratic legislation.

The last paragraph about it being voluntary defies logic.

"Operators are asked to comply with these guidelines on a voluntary basis. However if the police inform the Traffic Commissioner of any failure on an operator’s part to comply with them the Commissioner will consider applying them as a formal condition to that operator’s licence under the authority of Section 16(3) of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981".

As a transport operator, I can see the logic. We all stay in business because we are licensed by the regulatory body (the Traffic Commissioner). Fall foul of the Commissioner by operating in breach of the conditions attached to your licence and he can shut the business down or reduce the number of vehicles you are allowed to operate. It doesn't happen very often, but it can.

There was a case involving a Brighton based PSV operator about six months ago that resulted in the operator having his licence rescinded.