[Politics] The Labour Government

[nevergoagain]

Just want to say I'm a huge fan of the increasing insinuation from some that a chancellor who worked at the Bank of England doesn't really understand how money works as well as they claim to do

I also have worked at BoE and there are an awful lot of people there just for the name on the CV and are actually rubbish at their jobs. Mark Carney was a top top bloke though.

 

[Weststander]

In 2022 the LSE said scraping the tax benefits of non dom status would raise £3.2b a year.

Earlier this year all estimates said a much reduced £1b, including from the OBR.

Before the Adam Smith Institute report, a recent insight said it would cost tax.

These invariably aren’t tax dodging Brits. 93% were born abroad, they came to the UK from the US, India and mainland Europe. They’re mobile, without a lifetime’s attachment to this country. They have been leaving the UK following adverse tax charges, there were 140,000 in 2007/08, now 74,000. The 74,000 pay £8.9b per annum in UK taxes.

To recap on the technical nature of a non-Doms tax affairs. They don’t pay tax on overseas income or gains when not then remitted to the UK, instead a flat rate £30k or £60k annual charge. So for example an American or Indian non-dom living in London doesn’t pay tax on dividends received in their native country, when not then brought into the UK. That’s it.

Italy and the UAE are making a concerted effort to lure the non-doms, it’s working.

The feeling is that Reeves is watering down any proposals. If true, she’s looked and listened.

 

[Weststander]

The rich are an interesting subject.. As I have said so easy in opposition for genuine and vote reasons to say will go for rich including non doms but when in government realise how much these people contribute. An example I read at present non doms at present time contribute over £6b
Our top PL players pay 45% and would be interesting what the top rate is in Spain Italy and Germany

Overseas players in Spain pay half that rate.

 

[chip]

Not if was tax-free interest added to the savings.

Not if it's ISAs - they're all tax-free.

And the £1k only applies to people with other income of £17.5k. If you have no other income, then I think you can earn savings interest up to the normal tax threshold (£12,570), plus the personal savings allowance.

Edit - no, if your 'other income' is nil, it looks like your £1k PSA is upped to £5k.

Yes, of course. I wonder why it would be that it's increased if you have no other income. There must be a reason for that, what could it be?

 

[drew]

In 2022 the LSE said scraping the tax benefits of non dom status would raise £3.2b a year.

Earlier this year all estimates said a much reduced £1b, including from the OBR.

Before the Adam Smith Institute report, a recent insight said it would cost tax.

These invariably aren’t tax dodging Brits. 93% were born abroad, they came to the UK from the US, India and mainland Europe. They’re mobile, without a lifetime’s attachment to this country. They have been leaving the UK following adverse tax charges, there were 140,000 in 2007/08, now 74,000. The 74,000 pay £8.9b per annum in UK taxes.

To recap on the technical nature of a non-Doms tax affairs. They don’t pay tax on overseas income or gains when not then remitted to the UK, instead a flat rate £30k or £60k annual charge. So for example an American or Indian non-dom living in London doesn’t pay tax on dividends received in their native country, when not then brought into the UK. That’s it.

Italy and the UAE are making a concerted effort to lure the non-doms, it’s working.

The feeling is that Reeves is watering down any proposals. If true, she’s looked and listened.

Wouldn't the centre right Adam Smith Institute not say anything else!

 

[Weststander]

Wouldn't the centre right Adam Smith Institute not say anything else!

That’s why I ignored their thoughts. Instead using HMRC, Full Fact, LSE and CIOT sauces.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Personal savings allowance is £1000 for basic rate.

It would take a lot of savings to get that much interest from ISAs, ~25 years.

In a way this misses the point, it is interest not income in this example. If you have £20K savings you might get £1K interest, at what point does this become income? I imagine most of us get an income (interest) under this definition.

There is a £12,570 Personal Allowance, a £1,000 Savings Allowance AND a Starting Rate of £5,000 @ 0% on interest for those with no other income, such as employment.

Someone aged 60 who was left £400K capital by a dead parent could receive £18,570 interest and not pay a penny in tax.

I've just done a Tax Return for a bloke who had £22 K interest, £47 K dividends and who still got the £5K Starting Rate @ 0%.

 

[Machiavelli]

He's not running the show but he's obviously fu**ing mental, looking at his bio

View attachment 191072

The wonders we have in our great nation, and you can count on @Is it PotG? to find them out.

 

[Machiavelli]

I’m not sure it is simplistic bolleaux. There have been quite a few reports of increasing numbers of very wealthy planning to do just that, however, I have no idea whether or not they actually will. Let me put it slightly differently, there are fears amongst some, that the very wealthy who are often in a position to arrange their affairs to mitigate against government action to get more tax from them, will legitimately do so, whilst the ‘ neither rich nor poor Joes in the middle’ will get clobbered. There are more of them and they are easier targets. You may not agree, but I think it is a reasonable view to take. I believe the leaders of the country’s most powerful union, the BMA are already making noises/threats about doctors quitting or retiring early if there are changes to their pension arrangements, so there may be trouble ahead with the militant medics and I don’t suppose Wes Streeting would look forward to that.
Finally, re your remark on checking every single line of dear Rachel’s budget, you can be sure the lawyers, advisers and accountants of the very wealthy will be doing just that for them. The ‘neither rich nor poor Joes in the middle ‘ may not be so fortunate.
Anyway, let us hope it all goes swimmingly well and those of us with misgivings about our leaders are worrying about nothing.

Excellent. Let's leave it up to the 'very wealthy' to run our affairs. I'm sure it'll turn out well.

 

[chip]

There is a £12,570 Personal Allowance, a £1,000 Savings Allowance AND a Starting Rate of £5,000 @ 0% on interest for those with no other income, such as employment.

Someone aged 60 who was left £400K capital by a dead parent could receive £18,570 interest and not pay a penny in tax.

I've just done a Tax Return for a bloke who had £22 K interest, £47 K dividends and who still got the £5K Starting Rate @ 0%.

Thank you, that's clearer, it's a hypothetical case not a real case. So they lived on nothing beforehand and didn't work? That must be about five people. Presumably some IHT payed as well then on the inheritance.

And what is wrong with the real example if they have no other income? presumably they'd pay about £8.75K on the dividends?

 

[chip]

There is a £12,570 Personal Allowance, a £1,000 Savings Allowance AND a Starting Rate of £5,000 @ 0% on interest for those with no other income, such as employment.

Someone aged 60 who was left £400K capital by a dead parent could receive £18,570 interest and not pay a penny in tax.

I've just done a Tax Return for a bloke who had £22 K interest, £47 K dividends and who still got the £5K Starting Rate @ 0%.

Ahhh, do you mean that the CGT is charged at a lower rate than income tax? In which case I now see. Do you mean tax the whole lot as income and if under pension age charge NI? In which case that seems fair.

I'd still disagree with your first example.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I see this line trotted out all the time and it really is simplistic bolleaux.

Firstly, many can't and I'll give you a great example close to home; Premier League (and increasingly Championship) players. And it's really not that simple for anyone with a successful business here, kids in a school or UK university etc. And, thanks to Brexit, you can't just go and live in Europe at the drop of a hat either.

Secondly, and a point that's never really addressed, they will be replaced. Human beings are naturally ambitious and plenty of aspiring traders, C level folk, entrepreneurs and sportspeople are simply going to be on a path to be the best. They won't be checking every single line of Rachel Reeves' budget every time they make a trade, secure a sale or score a goal.

Agree. Regarding your point about successful businesses, the backbone of the German economy is the “Mittelstand” , approx 3 million “small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) with annual revenues up to 50 million Euro and a maximum of 500 employees.“ These are typically privately owned and owned by very rich individuals or groups of individuals and/or families. Germany has high personal tax and high corporate tax; if you believed the Tory UK rhetoric you’d expect all these owners to be relocating to Luxembourg and Monaco. But they don’t. In fact it’s the opposite; a characteristic of this sector is they’re deeply rooted in their location and often have many local philanthropic activities on the go. They will all, without fail, own a Villa in Majorca though. I understand Austria and Switzerland are similar without the Majorcan villas.

Regarding the UK, I have no doubt there will a noisy bunch who leave but I have never been convinced it will be significant numbers….if you’re rich enough to live where you want you’ll surely do exactly that i.e. live where you want.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

BREAKING: Rachel Reeves will increase employers’ National Insurance by up to 2% points in the Budget The move will raise £20bn and apply to the private sector only [
@thetimes
]

Not sure this will go down well

 

[dsr-burnley]

BREAKING: Rachel Reeves will increase employers’ National Insurance by up to 2% points in the Budget The move will raise £20bn and apply to the private sector only [
@thetimes
]

Not sure this will go down well

Well, it's obviously a breach of a manifesto promise, which isn't a good start. Perhaps that's why the budget is so long after the election, because it's easier to tear up the manifesto after 4 months rather than 4 weeks.

It's an oversimplification to say it will apply to the private sector only, but it does make a difference only to the private sector because the government doesn't suffer by paying taxes to itself.

 

[marlowe]

 

[Weststander]

Agree. Regarding your point about successful businesses, the backbone of the German economy is the “Mittelstand” , approx 3 million “small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) with annual revenues up to 50 million Euro and a maximum of 500 employees.“ These are typically privately owned and owned by very rich individuals or groups of individuals and/or families. Germany has high personal tax and high corporate tax; if you believed the Tory UK rhetoric you’d expect all these owners to be relocating to Luxembourg and Monaco. But they don’t. In fact it’s the opposite; a characteristic of this sector is they’re deeply rooted in their location and often have many local philanthropic activities on the go. They will all, without fail, own a Villa in Majorca though. I understand Austria and Switzerland are similar without the Majorcan villas.

Regarding the UK, I have no doubt there will a noisy bunch who leave but I have never been convinced it will be significant numbers….if you’re rich enough to live where you want you’ll surely do exactly that i.e. live where you want.

Tax fraud amongst the wealthy and businesses in Germany is a huge thing, far bigger than the UK. Much of this was revealed in the Luxembourg, Panama and Swiss information leaks. On top of the following data, Germany recently lost another €31b to a dividends tax fraud carried out by its business shareholders, it would’ve made the news.

Rich Germans and French loath paying taxes too, many criminally so.

 

[Weststander]

BREAKING: Rachel Reeves will increase employers’ National Insurance by up to 2% points in the Budget The move will raise £20bn and apply to the private sector only [
@thetimes
]

Not sure this will go down well

But abandoned the plan for employers NI on employers pension contributions. Would’ve been madness, discouraging saving for retirement.

 

[BLOCK F]

Excellent. Let's leave it up to the 'very wealthy' to run our affairs. I'm sure it'll turn out well.

Good grief, what a peculiar response to my post.
What on earth are you on about? If you read my post again and my previous posts and those of others, you will see that I am expressing fears that those in the middle, neither rich nor poor, may have. Where have I suggested that we leave it up to the very wealthy to run our affairs? Very odd.
I shall be polite and just say that I think you have got the wrong end of my stick!

 

[Hugo Rune]

Well, it's obviously a breach of a manifesto promise, which isn't a good start.

What’s the ‘obvious’ bit? Can you give the the exact promise you refer to?

It’s going to cost the organisation I work in around £20k per year. I believe we can absorb this without affecting ‘working people’.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Tax fraud amongst the wealthy and businesses in Germany is a huge thing, far bigger than the UK. Much of this was revealed in the Luxembourg, Panama and Swiss information leaks. On top of the following data, Germany recently lost another €31b to a dividends tax fraud carried out by its business shareholders, it would’ve made the news.

View attachment 191177

Rich Germans and French loath paying taxes too, many criminally so.

Tax fraud amongst the wealthy and businesses in Germany is a huge thing, far bigger than the UK. Much of this was revealed in the Luxembourg, Panama and Swiss information leaks. On top of the following data, Germany recently lost another €31b to a dividends tax fraud carried out by its business shareholders, it would’ve made the news.

View attachment 191177

Rich Germans and French loath paying taxes too, many criminally so.

I’m not denying any tax evasion but that graph is simple absolute values and doesn’t present an accurate comparison ….it’s skewed by countries with larger populations, higher GDPs and/or higher taxes. I’m not sure what context it was presented in, but in isolation it’s misleading.

If 10% of the population of Germany didn’t pay their taxes it stands to reason the total would be more than if 10% of the UK did the same as it would involve more people, higher amount of GDP and a higher amount of tax. I’d like to see the comparison once these factors are considered.

I’m surprised Greece isn’t in there as well.

My point was about rich Germans not leaving Germany though